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Thread: Do chemical nutes kill soil life??

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbit View Post
    If you keep the environment right I don't think you'll notice the gws missing, and still why lay out that money when you can culture your own BIM'S ( beneficial indigenous microorganisms) for pennies.

    Im having a hard time finding out what organics are containing what bennies. Obviously worm castings have alot but I cant find any info on which ones exactly
    On the subject of BIM , i have to wonder if growing non indigenous plants in BIM is maximising its potential. While im sure it has a lot of benefits , BIM would be better for native species but my mind still wanders when im thinking introduced species. By the way Australian soils are extremely old and contain very little P. Its one of the reasons we have so many environmental probs here due to the amount of superphosphates farmers have been using to compensate.[/QUOTE]

    The bim's I collect are all from healthy environments in the wild, but at the end of the day all I use is the worm castings from the bin and I'm only guessing that there's any lmicrobes at all in any of the organic growing I do. One things for sure surely without the addition of the wormcastjngs and organic matter is keeping them going because I use a very low ppm or ec I believe so they should be starving lol.

    Specify what you mean by what organics contain what bennies.

    Proper organics(water only) rellys totally on all types of beneficial microbes,

    H I'm just gathering the tricha info mate.

    I'm gonna do a post on mycorrhiza in hydroponics, I'm gonna just take pictures from my book and post them lol can't be arsed writing it all out again, done it once and cut it instead of copying ffs
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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbit View Post
    I hear you mate. Thats kinda my point why add GWS if your gunna kill it any way??
    I can't see how GWS will kill any micro-herd. It's a fungi, so therefore organic. Does GWS contain any non-organic material?

    Personally, I use...

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  5. #13
    Hobbit Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by redsiel View Post
    Im having a hard time finding out what organics are containing what bennies. Obviously worm castings have alot but I cant find any info on which ones exactly
    On the subject of BIM , i have to wonder if growing non indigenous plants in BIM is maximising its potential. While im sure it has a lot of benefits , BIM would be better for native species but my mind still wanders when im thinking introduced species. By the way Australian soils are extremely old and contain very little P. Its one of the reasons we have so many environmental probs here due to the amount of superphosphates farmers have been using to compensate.
    The bim's I collect are all from healthy environments in the wild, but at the end of the day all I use is the worm castings from the bin and I'm only guessing that there's any lmicrobes at all in any of the organic growing I do. One things for sure surely without the addition of the wormcastjngs and organic matter is keeping them going because I use a very low ppm or ec I believe so they should be starving lol.

    Specify what you mean by what organics contain what bennies.

    Proper organics(water only) rellys totally on all types of beneficial microbes,

    H I'm just gathering the tricha info mate.

    I'm gonna do a post on mycorrhiza in hydroponics, I'm gonna just take pictures from my book and post them lol can't be arsed writing it all out again, done it once and cut it instead of copying ffs
    Refz[/QUOTE]


    Cheers REd looking forward to the tricha info. In regards to what contains which I mean simply that everything organic has bacteria or fungi but different things will host different bacteria and different fungi. Be good to know whats what. Also different species may produce different enzymes.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aspie Toker View Post
    I can't see how GWS will kill any micro-herd. It's a fungi, so therefore organic. Does GWS contain any non-organic material?

    Personally, I use...
    Im not suggesting that GWS kills anything mate. Im suggesting that using it in hydro or coco where synthetic/chemical nutes are applied is a waste of time as they dont like salts. from my understanding this is especially true in regards to bacteria and the osmosis effect it has on them. GWS also contains bacteria. It seems that it may be good in coco for the first couple of weeks before feeding commences and then pointless. I have seen with my own eyes the benefits in using it for seedlings and BL has also demonstrated its benefits in a thread here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbit View Post
    The bim's I collect are all from healthy environments in the wild, but at the end of the day all I use is the worm castings from the bin and I'm only guessing that there's any lmicrobes at all in any of the organic growing I do. One things for sure surely without the addition of the wormcastjngs and organic matter is keeping them going because I use a very low ppm or ec I believe so they should be starving lol.

    Specify what you mean by what organics contain what bennies.

    Proper organics(water only) rellys totally on all types of beneficial microbes,

    H I'm just gathering the tricha info mate.

    I'm gonna do a post on mycorrhiza in hydroponics, I'm gonna just take pictures from my book and post them lol can't be arsed writing it all out again, done it once and cut it instead of copying ffs
    Refz

    Cheers REd looking forward to the tricha info. In regards to what contains which I mean simply that everything organic has bacteria or fungi but different things will host different bacteria and different fungi. Be good to know whats what. Also different species may produce different enzymes.



    Im not suggesting that GWS kills anything mate. Im suggesting that using it in hydro or coco where synthetic/chemical nutes are applied is a waste of time as they dont like salts. from my understanding this is especially true in regards to bacteria and the osmosis effect it has on them. GWS also contains bacteria. It seems that it may be good in coco for the first couple of weeks before feeding commences and then pointless. I have seen with my own eyes the benefits in using it for seedlings and BL has also demonstrated its benefits in a thread here.[/QUOTE]

    Gws is supposed to supply a range of the bennies that help our plants.
    I'll see if I can put something here in short detail because there's only a few types of bacteria and fungi,nematodes,archea etc

    I strongly recommend reading teaming with microbes it will teach you all the basics you need to know about howmicrobes work and how they work with plants and soil
    Redz

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aspie Toker View Post
    I can't see how GWS will kill any micro-herd. It's a fungi, so therefore organic. Does GWS contain any non-organic material?

    Personally, I use...
    No aspie not the gws it's the synthetic ferts that kill the herd, I'd like to put a pot of gws under a microscope though to determine exactly what's in there.

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  9. #15
    Hobbit Guest

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    Cheers Red, the info im chasing is not so much what they do as a collective subject, thats a bit straight forward mate, more as individual species and where can I find them. Eg some tricha are found in your mattress mate some on logs all different preferences for different species. I am getting there slowly but its slow finding info.

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    I emailed the guys at Ecothrive Biosys and they told me if you keep your nutrients and medium below 1.5ec you should be ok. Anything more than that and they go dormant.

    I feed Biosys and often wonder if it is a waste of time if I am feeding synthetic nutes.

    Anyone used EM-1 Microbial Inoculant. It's cheap enough to buy or easily made for pennies yourself.
    TO GROW A PLANT YOU NEED TO THINK LIKE A PLANT


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  13. #17
    Hobbit Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by toblue View Post
    I emailed the guys at Ecothrive Biosys and they told me if you keep your nutrients and medium below 1.5ec you should be ok. Anything more than that and they go dormant.

    I feed Biosys and often wonder if it is a waste of time if I am feeding synthetic nutes.

    Anyone used EM-1 Microbial Inoculant. It's cheap enough to buy or easily made for pennies yourself.
    Haha the plot thickens.

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  15. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by toblue View Post
    I emailed the guys at Ecothrive Biosys and they told me if you keep your nutrients and medium below 1.5ec you should be ok. Anything more than that and they go dormant.

    I feed Biosys and often wonder if it is a waste of time if I am feeding synthetic nutes.

    Anyone used EM-1 Microbial Inoculant. It's cheap enough to buy or easily made for pennies yourself.
    Not so much just the ec mate there's more to it,
    Is there chloramines in your water that are bonded and trust me take a lot more than a 24 hour bubble to remove.

    Phosphorus has a lot to do with the fungi like I say.

    Em1 is just lab,pnsb and another I can't think of off the top of my head, again like TB says the simple lacto made from rice wash water will do this job

    All these other bacteria that we speak of are basically the nitrogen fixing, phosphorus fixing etc which we get from growing the cover crops with certain legumes.

    I need to do a post here later to brake this down and make it more simple

    The soil food web is a start too
    Blessings
    Redz
    Last edited by redisiel; 15-06-17 at 11:36 AM.

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  17. #19

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    Oh I believe phosphorus above 40-50 ppm's it is
    Redz

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  19. #20
    Hobbit Guest

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    Ok Im gunna re hash this as im still unsure. Been reading a lot of guys adding GW to their Hydro systems as well and getting great results even with synthetics. The only way to really know im thinking is to tets soil life before and after using synthetics.



    Does Fertilizer Kill Soil Bacteria?
    By Robert Pavlis on May 26, 2016

    Read most organic books or blogs and they will tell you that synthetic chemical fertilizers are killing the bacteria and fungi, the microbes, in soil. Dr. Ingham and her Soil Food Web preach this same message. Stop using fertilizers because they kill the bacteria and fungi. My review of Teaming With Microbes found the same message repeated several times.

    Does fertilizers really kill bacteria or fungi in soil?

    Some people claim that the ‘salts’ in fertilizer do the damage, but anyone making such a claim does not understand what happens to salts in soil. I’ll explain this in more detail below.

    Fertilizer Kills Bacteria
    Fertilizer provides nutrients like nitrate, ammonium, phosphate, calcium, potassium, sulfur etc. These are all nutrients that plants need to grow. See Fertilizer – Understanding Plant Nutrients for more info.

    A lot of organic followers believe that the nutrients from organic sources are some how different from the ones provided by fertilizer. They are NOT! There is no lab in the world that can tell the difference between a nitrate molecule from manure and one from a bag of synthetic fertilizer. Plants can’t tell the difference either, because there is no difference. They don’t care where the nitrate came from.

    A lot of people doubt science and in some advanced areas of investigation science may not be 100% correct. This is not one of these situations. All chemists agree on the above fact and have done so for a long time.

    For more on this see my post What is Organic Fertilizer.

    Organic material releases the nutrients slowly over many years. Synthetic chemicals release the nutrients as soon as the fertilizer dissolves in water. Is it possible that the quick release of nutrients kills microbes?

    Keep in mind that the soil under your fingernail after a day in the garden contains millions if not billions of bacteria. Is it reasonable to think that fertilizer would kill all of them? I don’t think so. Even if the fertilizer killed 99% there would still be billions and billions in every shovel full of soil. And bacteria grow very quickly – as fast as doubling in number every 20 minutes (at least in a lab).

    Number of Bacteria After Adding Fertilizer
    There have been many studies looking at the number of bacteria in soil after applying fertilizer. In Impact of Organic and Inorganic Fertilizers on Microbial Populations (ref 1), they looked at both bacteria and fungi populations, and compared untreated soil to (a) soil treated with organic material (manure, rock phosphate, neem cake) and (b) soil treated with synthetic fertilizer. Measurements were done at two different depths.

    Adding synthetic fertilizer resulted in no change in the number of bacteria and an increase in the number of fungi. Organic treatment increased both fungi and bacteria slightly.

    Synthetic fertilizer did not kill bacteria in soil and it increased the number of fungi.

    Agriculture Canada looked at the effect of ammonia and urea on the microbes in soil over a 10 year study, ref 2, and concluded that “nitrogen applied according to soil test recommendations had minimal long-term detrimental consequences for soil microbes, soil biochemical properties, or soil structure.”

    The science is quite clear. Fertilizer, when used properly, does not kill microbes.

    Microbes Eat Synthetic Fertilizer
    Why do fertilizers not kill bacteria? The simple fact is that the nutrients in fertilizer, especially the nitrate, is a nutrient required by bacteria. They eat it! They actually absorb it since they have no mouth, but you get the idea. They also eat the other nutrients; phosphate, potassium, sulfate etc. Bacteria and fungi need these nutrients as much as plants do.

    Once you understand this, it becomes fairly obvious that adding these nutrients to soil will not kill the microbes, unless they are added in very large amounts that prove toxic.

    Think of composting. If you add too many browns the composting process goes slowly because there is not enough nitrogen available for the bacteria to eat. Since the bacteria are starving for nitrogen they don’t multiply and composting is slow. Add some nitrogen, either as a fertilizer, or as ‘greens’ which contain higher levels of nitrogen, and the compost pile suddenly heats up. The bacteria now have enough nitrogen to eat, they are active, and they multiply. All of this activity heats up the compost pile.

    To better understand composting greens and browns see How to Compost: Browns and Greens.

    Fertilizers are Salts and Salts Kill – Don’t They?
    You see comments like this all the time; “fertilizers are made up of salts and salts kill bacteria.”

    It is true that fertilizers are salts. This is not sodium chloride or table salt. The term ‘salt’ has a different meaning for a chemist. To them, a salt is a compound made up of two or more ions. Table salt is made up of sodium ions and chlorine ions. Ammonium nitrate fertilizer is made up of ammonium ions and nitrate ions, so it is also called a salt.

    In dry form the ions come together to form salts. When the salts dissolve in water, the molecules break apart and form ions. When fertilizer salts are spread on the ground the white and gray balls are salt. When it rains, the water dissolves the salt into ions and washes them into the soil. Once they are in the soil they are no longer salts.

    Salt will harm bacteria and plant roots if there is direct contact. Due to the large number of microbes in soil, and the small surface area of the fertilizer crystals, this has no significant effect on the microbe populations in soil. Once the salt is dissolved, the ions quickly become diluted as the water moves through the soil layer.

    Diluted ions in water do not harm microbes or plant roots. In fact both of their lives depend on the ions being in the water. It is the ions that they absorb – not the salts.

    What happens with organic fertilizers like compost and manure? They contain large molecules like protein and carbohydrates. As these are decomposed, they are converted into ions. These ions are the exact same ions that fertilizer produces.

    Once commercial fertilizer dissolves in water it is no different than organic fertilizer. Fertilizer does not kill bacteria or fungi.

    References:

    Impact of Organic and Inorganic Fertilizers on Microbial Populations; http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ja...102.110&org=11
    Ammonia and Urea fertilization – Facts and Myths; http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/faq7758

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