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Thread: Is this some sort of Lockout? Twisted, Yellow leaves

  1. #1

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    Default Is this some sort of Lockout? Twisted, Yellow leaves

    Hi all, This is my first post so please bear with my if there is any important info I've missed.
    I'm a novice grower attempting a pretty tricky micro grow in order to maintain stealth. This is my third grow but hopefully my first to actually make it to harvest.

    I took these this morning, it's day 18 since the seed popped. She's a Northern Lights Auto from dope-seeds, popped in less than 24 hours which suggest pretty good genetics IMO.
    The main symptoms are yellowing of the lower leaves from the middle and tip of the leave inwards. It started on the cotyledons and today the single finger fan leaves are showing it on the tips. The veins of the leaves are noticeably more yellow than other parts. I'd usually put this down to nitrogen deficiency however if you look closely there's a tiny bit of nute burn on the tips, which is the source of my confusion. I could understand if the soil is a little hot (see below) but am not sure why this is causing symptoms of a deficiency. To make things more confusing the leaves are now pointing down at the tips, yesterday the entire leaves were pointing straight up which I assume was in response to increased airflow and better temperature.

    day18top.jpgday18side.jpg

    I got off to a shaky start as I've been away from the hobby for a while but thought I had sorted all my problems sorted until about 2 days ago. I initially had some problems with airflow and high temperature (same cause, not enough airflow) and my temps were between 28C to 33C. Just before I fixed the airflow problem it peaked at 37C, we had some hot weather and I took some powertools to the side of my enclosure. I believe this is why she's so small for day 18, however due to my tiny grow space I'm not too fussed about that and am still going to try and save her.

    I'm growing in soil, it's a generic soil for growing vegetables. It's about one 5th perlite and maybe a 10th vermiculute. I think the soil was initially enriched with some sort of nutrients (possibly peat moss) which is what caused my last plant to die of nute burn, I've since flushed the crap out of it and judging by the PH indicator it's between 6 and 7. Digital PH meter is on my shopping list. Pot size is 2L, planted straight in the soil and it's where she'll remain all the way into flower. I'm actually hoping this will keep her small as I have about a foot of vertical height. Maybe I'll have root bound problems down the road but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it! I have the Biobizz veg and bloom lined up, however I haven't added any yet since If there's one thing I've learned from my past 2 plants it's that doing nothing is better than hastily trying to fix a problem just for the sake of doing something.

    My temps are now stable around 26.5C. The range is less than 25 to 28 since improving my airflow. Humidity has been around 45%, however that was at higher temps and it's now about 50%. I know this isn't perfect but it's not dangerously low so right now it's the least of my concerns. And finally, lighting. I have 2x 24w 6500k CFLs about 4 or 5 inches above the top leaves. This is also the same height as my temperature probe.

    As I've mentioned I flushed the soil before planting so it was really soaking. 2L is pretty big for a seedling and that water lasted until yesterday, when I gave her her first drink. Since it's been more than 2 weeks I believe this would be the time to start with the nutes however I didn't do so out of fear that I'd make my problems worse. Instead I sort of gave her a second flush, basically using about 2Litres of of water over the bath which was when the water stopped coming out yellow.

    As you can probably tell I'm a bit lost here so really any advice is appreciated. I know it's a little confusing as I've changed the environment a few times and I have considered this might just be stress from the sudden changes in temperature and co2 levels, however each time I check on her the yellowing seems to be creeping upwards and getting worse. I don't really care about my yields at this point, I just don't want to lose another plant.

    Thanks for any help,
    Love and peace!
    Last edited by ShamanShiba; 16-10-18 at 06:00 PM.

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  3. #2

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    To be honest,looks ok to me? Like you said,maybe a little stressed due to environment changes. In my limited experience,its sometimes easy to see problems that are not there and by trying to fix them,you make them alot worse. A foot of grow space is going to be a push though IMO.Also,usually in soil,no nutes are really needed for the first 4-ish weeks but im not to sure in 2l of soil,may need it before? but please dont take what Ive said as gospel, wait until one of the experienced growers give you some advice.

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    Doesn't look to bad.

    If anything all the flushing might be causing it to be to wet.

    Is the pot light when you watered it?

    Seedlings need it to be dry so the roots search for water.

    To much water me thinks

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    Thanks for the responses guys, I'm hoping it is just the changes I've made plus a little bit of noob paranoia

    And Ben, I waited until the pot was super light before watering. One advantage of growing in such a large pot (relative to the plant size) is I can stick my finger all the way to the bottom without damaging the roots to see how wet it is down there and it was bone dry when I watered, I think another day and she would have started wilting. I killed my first plant by overwatering so hopefully I'm not making the same mistake again.

    However I don't think my camera is really good enough to capture the problem properly. I've now noticed some mottling in the middle of the affected leaves, it's not quite brown spots (more like white at the moment) but will update when it gets a little more obvious. That's the struggle of trying to diagnose such a tiny plant!

    Will update this thread with pics if it gets worse, fingers crossed it just goes away

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    U need a higher humidity. I'm going to post a link for vapor pressure deficiency chart.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Spdrjeff View Post
    U need a higher humidity. I'm going to post a link for vapor pressure deficiency chart.
    Thanks man, this chart is extremely useful and I've not seen anything like it in any of the other threads or guides about humidity. Good to know I'm not in the danger zone but I'm definitely going to have to invest in a humidifier or something.

    However I don't think the low humidity is what's causing all this trouble. The problem has gotten worse, the cotyledons now dying. I know they usually die after a while but the 3rd pair of leaves have barely even come in. I think this must be a nitrogen deficiency right? The leave's are turning pale at the ends, eventually turning yellow then dying like the cotyledon showing below.


    day22.jpgday22_2.jpg


    She's 3 weeks and a day old now. I'm worried this plant isn't gonna make it as the second leaves are already showing brown tips and may be half dead by tomorrow.
    Please advise on what the problem or solution could be... As I'm not completely sure. I'm thinking that since she will probably die anyway I may try a small dose of the BioBizz Grow.

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    Did you let her dry out before watering again? A few days ago she was way overwatered. Did you water again too soon? There should be no need for nutes at this stage and age in any amended soil.

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    Well not completely... but it was dry down to about an inch, it would have been tomorrow or the day after.

    And I know, some people even say wait until week 4 before adding nutes but the soil should have been completely nutrient free and I've been reading through all the symptom threads again and I just can't see anything else it could be other than a nitrogen deficiency.

    I just added about half a ml of biobizz grow, it's NPK 4-3-6. Not sure exactly how much nitrogen that is but it's less than they recommend so I'm just going to see what effect it has. The 3rd set of leaves you can see in the pics I posted earlier can actually be seen in the OP from 4 days before, so that should give you an idea of how slow she's really been growing. I'm expecting to see that speed up a little now since nitrogen is pretty essential for growth. If not I may have killed another plant...

    Let me know what you guys think will happen!

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    Personally i wouldn't be giving any nutes as yet and just be carrying on with water if you get the watering right she should come good, all the best mukka, G'.
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    Okay hey guys and gyals thanks for all the information. I have put together this image to show how slow the new growth had been until adding the nutes yesterday. Not even 24 hours and she's grown as much as she did over the previous 4 days!

    I think it's safe to say my poor soil was the problem here, but I may still update this thread if the yellowing doesn't stop traveling upwards.

    Peace out!
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    Last edited by ShamanShiba; 21-10-18 at 03:49 PM.

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    JMO fella but I'm going to take a stab at under developed roots
    Forget what the plant looks like above the soil for now
    Imagine just for a second if soil was transparent what you would see at 18 days is a mass of roots going down and winding around all happy
    With drenching the pot at the start I'm guessing you've got a small root ball compared to the plant above the soil
    So you could be correct that lack of nitrogen is your problem because the roots can't be arsed to going looking for it so your leaf colour is fluctuating because its not getting the nutrients at the speed the plants trying grow at
    Thats why even though I grow seed to weed 60 day autos I still use a 10 litre pot just so I can water further enough away from the stem that my roots got no choice but to spread out as fast as possible
    With auto's your growing roots for the first two weeks and not plants
    Atb and just my baked oppinion
    Last edited by Innerself; 21-10-18 at 07:59 PM.

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  23. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Innerself View Post
    JMO fella but I'm going to take a stab at under developed roots
    Forget what the plant looks like above the soil for now
    Imagine just for a second if soil was transparent what you would see at 18 days is a mass of roots going down and winding around all happy
    With drenching the pot at the start I'm guessing you've got a small root ball compared to the plant above the soil
    So you could be correct that lack of nitrogen is your problem because the roots can't be arsed to going looking for it so your leaf colour is fluctuating because its not getting the nutrients at the speed the plants trying grow at
    Thats why even though I grow seed to weed 60 day autos I still use a 10 litre pot just so I can water further enough away from the stem that my roots got no choice but to spread out as fast as possible
    With auto's your growing roots for the first two weeks and not plants
    Atb and just my baked oppinion
    Hi bro, I think you're definitely onto something there.
    Since adding the nutrients yellowing seems to have stopped but also growth has exploded and I don't think that's really supposed to happen for another couple of weeks, so there's no denying she was nutrient starved.
    The quality of the soil is also pretty bad... It's a vegetable growing mix from the store but it's full of clumps and sticks and stuff, most of which I removed by hand.

    I have been watering at the edges and avoiding pouring the water straight over the stem but the soil was pretty drenched each time so the roots not needing to grow very much would make a lot of sense. I wonder if it may actually work out for me by keeping the final plant size really small. That would be perfect, but not if It's going to cause all these other problems.

    Full disclosure... my pot is only 10cm deep and my grow space is only 35cm tall. It's a tiny PC case grow. Now I'm sure you're shaking your head but it was the best option for me at the time and my point of view was that an ounce or even half an ounce would still be better than nothing, and would teach me the basics of growing. Heck, about 5 years ago I grew a bag seed in a cup on my window ledge using shitty clay soil from the garden.
    So the plant becoming root bound is basically inevitable, the challenge is trying to make the best use of my tiny grow space.

    If she doesn't survive, I'll pull the soil from the roots and post some pics as it might help other users who might be having similar problems. Now that I'm thinking about it my last 2 plants had a pretty small root system when they died and I pulled them out.

    I'm currently looking for a full tower pc case (65+ cm tall) but it's hard to find one for a good price without windows in the side or anything. For my next grow I'm definitely going to use some better soil, I've heard "Multi-Purpose Compost With Added John Innes" is pretty good and it's easily available when I live. But this larger case will allow me to grow in 15 - 20cm deep 5L pots or better.

    Check out the attached picture of my grow space, the wooden beams are just to keep her closer to the light until she grows, the tub is full of water and rags to increase RH and above that is my homemade carbon filter. I was pretty impressed with what I could fit in this space... and most importantly from the outside you wouldn't suspect a thing.

    Thanks for all the help and info provided in this thread guys, If there's one piece of advice I'd give to noobies reading this it's that trying to cut corners and save money here and there can end up being pretty expensive when you have to re buy everything cause the stuff you bought won't cut it. Can't fault me for being ambitious with my tiny space though!

    Peace!

    day24.jpg space.jpg
    Last edited by ShamanShiba; 22-10-18 at 05:19 PM.

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  25. #13

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    If possible matey see if there is a hydroponics store near you or online and try a cannabis friendly soil like plant magic soil supreme plus around 12 a bag so it costs a bit more than the usual store bought dirt and when you see it you'll know why.. Its lighter as anything just add some perlite and you should never have a problem with poor drainage in future
    Try not to completely drench your soil before hand again
    Soil is usually moist anyway so I just slightly damp around where I drop the seedling in and then control the water from then on starting from about 100ml and 3 inches from the stem when the seedling breaks the surface and next watering I go further out until I'm at the edge of the pot, and only around day 20 will my pot get its first full pot soak by then my auto has exploded
    I've used some cheap soil before and I could never get the pot to dry out evenly, with the dead branches and mulch holding on to the moisture and don't get me started on the shredded carrier bag in it

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