DWC problems please help ! Medical grow
Hello to all I'm a new member here & this is my 1st ever post ! (here or on any site ! never been on forum before ! ) Anyway to the problem, I am new to dwc & growing- well got 2 succsessful grws in NFT under my belt. At the min I have 3 Blue Venom in 4th Wk of flower ( a cross of blueberry n ww ) in a 100x100x200 budbox tnt under a 400w dual spec HPS, I have a TT125 Intake. & a 5" carbon filter connected to a RVK 150 temp control exhaust fan. Lights on temp= 75-85 & RH=40-55%. During the day the lights off ( summertime ) & it's gotten HOT ! max temp it's ever gotten is 90fh & 80% RH - Im using single 20litre buckets, each with 2x air stones via my .Hailea 960lph Adjustable Air pump. I'm using Canna Aqua Flores but at well below their recommended dose of 30ml of A & 30ml B per ten liters Of water ! But I'm using less than half strengh. In 50Liters water I'm using 70ml A & 70ml B, 60ml cannazyme ( was running canna boost also @ 1/2 strength too but stopped when problems started) This is giving an ec of 1.0 & i lower my Ph to 5.8 ( I let it drift up to 6.2 then lower normally) Right to the plants, 1 plant ( pot 2 ) seems ok & very big n healthy etc but has couple small signs of over fert but nothing major at all. But pot #1 is terrible & pot#3 isn't good either few top leaves are clawing down slightly ! It started about 2weeks ago - all was fine until I checked ph of Pot #1 one night & it had dropped from PH 5.6 Down to 4.3 ! So I raised it back using tap water to 5.6-5.7. & I noticed some spotting on the leaves ? I then checked pot#2 & she had dropped too ? From 5.8 down to 5.6 ? Long story short they had all dropped ! So I cleaned & changed res - I fill & mix nute's in a mixtank ( not pots ) 48hrs b4 I use & I leave air stone in mixtank also. So fresh mix goes into pots with an ec 1.0 & a ph5.8 Next morning they had all dropped again but not as low this time, say only by 0.1 0.2 etc. The next day my big girl is back on track - Ph seems stable . But pot#1 has dry brown spots all over top & middle leaves ! Looks like Calcium def ? Or overfert / ph lockout ? I will post pics ASAP - This spotting / damage had gotten worse so I had to trim off the really bad damage. Pot#3 has some similar symptoms ie ph dropping still . I hope someone can help as it's a puzzler ? Oh yes the roots are fine & bright white, No slime or pythium smell ! Any help or advice would be so greatfully appreciated I'm a try n post some pics as soon as I figure out how ! lol . I hope I can save em as they are so beautiful ! The smell of cotton candy ! I suffer from liver cancer & this strain is meant to be great for all my symptoms etc ! I will post a smoke report if they get that far :-(
Many Thanks to all
pics of leaves
Last edited by DWC; 28-06-12 at 02:37 PM.
Can anybody help at all ? The other plants are now dropping quite drasticly ( drop from 5.8 last night to 4.2 tonight ) & I'm panicking like crazy. I'm sorry if I've posted in wrong place ! Any help or advice at all from any other grower would really really be appreciated ! A very worried patient !!!!!! Sorry for asking but I'm really concerned
No one at all ? Thank you anyway I will try and fix on my own
Hi, I did not see your post syesterday.
I will read through your write up, then look at the pics and make notes as I go of what I see.
Your setup seems ok, with what should be enough air flow for the space.
Your temps seem ok and humidity is a fraction high. You can lower your lights off humidity by either one of those crystal/jell dehumidifiers or raising the lights off temp with maybe a heater?
The EC is a little low for what should now be heavily flowering plants. I am a low feeder but still like to see an EC of 1.2 when flowering.
Oddly, you say one plant has clawing leaves, which is a sign of nute burn?
In the buckets, you are getting aenough air into them, with around 5l/min per bucket. I prefer more, around 10l/min but thats a personal thing and yours should be doing just fine.
The ph is good and setting at 5.8 is where I like to see it. Letting it drift up to 6.2 is ok, keeping adjustments within 0.5. Plants dont like changes of more than ph0.5
Something you dont mention, which is absolutely critical in DWC is your water temps. These need to be within the range of 16c and 21c. Below this, the plants growth can slow and more or less stop as its metabolism slows down and above this, the level of dissolved oxygen the water holds can drop from around 25ppm to 16ppm. A significant amount. This can result in 2 things. 1, the plants can look "overwatered", which is actually a lack of oxygen to the roots. The other is anerobic (low oxygen) conditions can allow pathogens to take hold, such as root rot.
If you are unsire of the water temps, check the colour of the roots, if they are bright white or have taken on the colour of your nutrients, thats fine, if they are browning or slimey, you have problems.
How you describe the problems, dropping ph etc is a classic thing that can happen in DWC when switching from grow to bloom nutes, I have seen it often. I have never been able to fully work out why it happens. My suspicion is that the plant starts eating the more alkaline nutrition, leaving behind some more acidic nutrition. If I tell you that most bloom nutrients seem to be too high in Phosphorous for certain stages of bloom, meaning this imbalance will leave behind Phosphorous. Orthophosphoric acid has another name to hydro growers, it is ph-!
So, I am suspecting your plant has eaten the other stuff, leaving the P, dropping the ph. This then causes a lockout of some of the micro/immobile elements.
Problems effecting the upper leaves of a plant are mostly cause by deficiencies in mobile nutrients. So you can discount N, P, K or Mg as the issues.
I think your diagnosis of a Ca problem is about right looking at the leaf damage, however, Ca is absorbed by the plant at low ph levels.
It is possible the ph swing is NOT the cause of these problems. A plant can take a couple of days ph fluctuation without showing these kinds of symptoms.
I think you have already done what I would be suggesting.
In DWC, if your environment conditions are correct, which yours are, a res change is like hitting the reset button.
Your environment is not causing the problem, so your problem is the nutrition.
As long as your ph remains stable, the res change should have solved the problem.
As you are probably aware, the damage wont repair and cutting off badly damaged leaves is a good idea since that will stop the plant "trying" to repair them, thereby wasting energy.
Give them a couple of days, raise your lights a little and if you have some, a couple of drops of Superthrive or some other vitamin supplement like AN B-52 may act as a stress reliever.
I am sure they will recover just fine with the res change.
Good luck fella.
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Woody J For This Useful Post:
babybud3232 (21-02-13), C21H30O2 (01-07-12), DWC (29-06-12), L (29-06-12), tony4004 (11-07-12)
THANK YOU SO MUCH WOODY J ! Thanx so much for taking the time to help me pal I'm truly grateful for all your advice & info sir ! What you say about res temps is something that could definitely be a problem as @ the moment I have no way of checking them as me thermometer bust !! But going into store 1st thing tomorrow morning to get a new one. I check the roots every week ( res change ) and they look healthy & white & I can't feel any slime ? Also I forgot to mention I have been adding "Hesi super Vit" at 12 drops per 50L - I left it out this week to see if it could of been causing an issue ( process of elimination lol ). I'm glad you don't think it's environmental ( got AC on way & a couple of those box's with like crystals in to lower RH ). Tonight I'm changing res again so I'm gonna flush with ph'd 6.0 water with just cannazym for 24hrs as pot one seems & looks bad - I will take a pic of the whole plant tonight & area so you can get an idea of space etc . I to was worried I was underfeeding them as ec 1.0 for week 4 of flower seems very low !? The big one pot 2 - has only couple signs of N burn etc is dropping her ec from 1 down to 0.8 in about 24hrs then levels at 0.8 ! I was planning on re-starting canna boost & Hesi Vit & was planning on adding PK13/14 in this week but am unsure if I should ? Also if they don't seem to pick up should I try upping feed ? I HATE adding more but these ec levels seem very low. Many many Thanks Woody ! I feel better just talking to another grower ( made me feel better ) I will post pics as soon as lights on ! Much Thanks again
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Welcome to the forum mate
I'm no expert like woody but I know that you can do very well while running a low ec. Throughout my last grow my plants stayed stable at around 1.2 throughout flowering, They didn't want to go higher so I let them stay at that. I did f up on the feed a few times though so they did get a bit of burn lol, that was in an nft btw
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I have only skimme through your post as I am off out just now, I will look back in tomorrow when I have a bit more time.
When your plants are healthy, you can say thanks, until then, just tryna help.
One thing, I wouldnt use any boosts or change the res again. Stick with what you have for now, stability is important. If however, the ph is still fluctuating, do a change on the one fluctuating.
For the EC, as long as it is dropping and the water level is dropping, the plant is eating & drinking. They can deal with low EC's. If you raise the EC too much, it can slow drinking, which means they slow nutrient transport because they are not as well hydrated, which means they wont eat as much.
I am utterly convinced lower EC's result in better fed plants, people like Heath Robinson agree so if its good enough for him, you can be sure its good enough for me.
Just stick with the base nutrients for now, no additives, this leaves less to complicate things. Add them back in when things are going well again, which they will soon enough.
Peace fella. W
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Woody J For This Useful Post:
DWC (29-06-12), L (29-06-12)
Hey L Thank you for the welcome and info ! and thank you to Woody also its good to know that a low ec is ok in flower ! As im running a Blue strain i thought (had been told) they don't like high ppms/ec and are quite sensitive ? I have just been to check - they have all dropped in ph again this time the big girl has dropped from 5.5 last night to 3.9 tonight ?!? So I emptyed all 3 pots an cleaned all & filled with ph'd 5.9 water with just cannazym just for 24hrs while my new nute mix is settling overnight with its air stone. I will do as you recommend Woody and i will ONLY use the base nute's & cannazym no PK or Boost - Should i leave the Super Vit out too ? Here r some more pics from tonightIMG_2237.jpgIMG_2262.jpgIMG_2263.jpgIMG_2273.jpgIMG_2243.jpg
Evening all, I hope your having a good wknd I have an update - tonight's ph/ec check ( they r in just ph,d 5.9 water & cannazym ) now the two worst affected they have stayed stable at 5.9. Now the biggest/healthiest one her ph had dropped down to 4.8 !??? They are all drinking quite a bit about 2-3litres a day sometimes more - e.c didnt rise from its base of 0.1 (just water & cannazym). Im starting to think its a bacteria or something I can't see . The roots look fine & white no slime ? But im a take my scope & have a look tomorrow . I'm a put fresh nute's in tomorrow Asap & just clean all equipment - airhose's,airstones/line & all containers. Quick question ! I have oxy-plus is it ok to use this as a cleaning soloition for the buckets ? The reason I ask is- it says on the Cannazym label "do not use with h2o2" . If it is ok,at what % oxy-plus to use ? I'm sorry I'm such a noob but as I'm having issues I don't want to chance the slightist thing ! Thanks again to all that pop by
The h202 will kill the enzymes in the cannazym so that's why they advise against it. If you're gonna use the h202 you'll need to add the cannazym back in at some point but that would have to be with a fresh res after the h202 treatment. ( assuming you're adding it to the buckets in situ or if your just using the stuff to clean the buckets out you'll be fine )
Hi Taylor Thank you for your help & info. I was planning on using the Oxy-plus for just a quick scrub out of all buckets etc . So I'm very grateful for your help Taylor ! I'm going to check oxy-plus website for their recommended dose for using it just to clean the oxypots during a res change. I'm hoping after a good clean ( Again !) it will stop dropping so dramatically.
But I normally just use hot water & washing up liquid & rinse again ! I know it's not a good idea but I had nothing else to hand. I Really am enjoying this style of growing despite seeing my girls suffer due to something I've done due to my stupidness I had fun with Nft for a while but only could afford a small kit ( enough for 2 plants ) and they got so top heavy they kept falling ! So it was support madness in me tent ! Thanks again for all your guys help ✌ If I / you guys help me figure out what's the fix I can post my diary so in case anyone else having similar probs needs it or jus for people to see Not how to do it ! lol
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Sorry I didnt get back to you yesterday.
Just had a re-read.
The dropping ph obviously locks out some nutrients but if you have changed the water out, then it drops overnight, I would correct it and see what happens the following day.
I use Growth Technology Liquid Silicon for my ph+ since this can be used as a plant food which helps the plants absorb nutrition. I find it one of the better additives but it can play havoc with your ph, however, using this to correct your ph just now may help?
Taylor is spot on about using H2O2 with enzymes, or friendly bacteria for that matter.
A little science lesson for you.
H2O2, hydrogen peroxide is, as you will no doubt have noticed, it water with an extra oxygen molecule. This extra O molecule makes it very unstable, so it looks for something to attach itself to. Where this is good is it generally finds bacteria or anything organic to attch to. Bad for enzymes since it kills them, or benefitical but for bad stuff in your water, it will sort them out fast.
Many growers use this daily to create a sterile water zone.
Unfortunately/fortunately, depending how you use it, it is not very long lasting, no more than a couple of hours.
SO you CAN use this stuff with enzymes & bennies but you have to reapply your enzymes etc 48 hours after using H2O2.
In this case, I doubt you have any water pathogens in there, the roots would give out the slimey/brown clues.
SO if you want to use H2O2 as a cleaning agent, you can, you will just have to use the enzymes later on.
Back to the main issue of the deficiencies and dropping ph.
I would say increase the EC to 1.2, if the plant is taking loads of N & K from the feed while it builds roots & stem/leaf material during stretch, it is leaving behind the P and as I said earlier, that is the main component of your ph-, in other words, it is very acidic which would account for the driopping ph.
By increasing the EC, you are giving the plants more of a buffer, so if they take out the same N & K, there will still be enough left to balance out the P.
Once you get the hang of DWC and especially seeing that explosive growth, going back to any other method just isnt quite the same.
One thing to note about these ph fluctuations. I have seen them often, always early flower and they always stabalise, so the problem will be short lived.
Good luck fella. W
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DWC (01-07-12), urban grower (02-07-12)
hi Woody i hope your well, you dont have to apologize pal for not being on here yesterday ! I cant say thanks enough for taking the time to help me mate. ( And a HUGE THANKS to All that have stopped by & helped me THANK YOU GUYs n Gals ). iv just had a read threw your last post ( im not with it at the minute - a bad week illness wise never-mind, there's always someone worse off than yourself ). Im going to do as you suggested & raise the E.C to 1.2 & see what happens, Im glad you've suggested this Woody as its been bothering me that an ec of 1.0 is to Low for 4th wk of flower (i start my count from when flowers first appear). If i start to have the e.c rise instead of drop, say to 1.3 is that ok ? as i normally dilute if i see a E.C rise. Their fresh food is bubbling away ready for them tonight Iv just got to adjust ph to 5.8 - 5.9 before using. My starting ph is 7.3 & when i add nutrients they drop it down to 6.3-6.4 , but by the next morning the mix tank has risen to 6.9 so i then add PH- using a pipet dropper normally 40 50 drops per 50Litres to get it to a PH of 5.8. Thank you for explaining about h202/oxy-plus I now understand what it does properly ! So if i use h202 just make sure NEVER at same time as "cannazym" or "Hesi super Vit" or any bennies & if used h202 for cleaning rinse very very well b4 using any bennies or just add them 48hrs later ? Im always reading or trying to learn as much as i can about growing etc ( as im in bed ill alot of the time ) but not enough on cleaning & sterilizing safely ! while i was searching I found a product by Canna that caught my eye called CANNA TRICHODERMA its a friendly bacteria which helps stop root problems & it helps with nutrient uptake ? can you use this in DWC ? its only a ONE time application too ! But Im thinking of getting something like that or Aquashield or Guardian Angel for the next grow & a better air pump: Any advice is greatly welcomed . I will update tomorrow on situation, fingers crossed !! its good to know that you have seen ph flux like this b4 woody & that it normally stabilizes, made me less panicked & worried . be lucky DWC
You have to learn to work out how much feed is in your water.
EC is a straight line measurement. SO if you have an EC of 1.0 in 20l of water after putting in 5ml of food, if you put in 10ml of food, the EC will be 2.0
So lets say your res is 10l capacity and you put in 5ml of food and the EC is 1.0.
The following day, the EC has risen to 1.1 but the water level has dropped to 9l
The easiest way to work this out is to dilute back to 10l of water.
Always work from the same level of water. So each day you will be replacing the water the plant has used plus evaporation.
So when you add back 1l of water, if the EC THEN is higher than your starting EC, INCREASE the EC.
The reason for this is how the roots work, by Osmosis. If the EC within the roots is higher than the surrounding water, the roots will try to balance the situation, which can mean leaching out some of the nutrition within the roots. Ideally, you want a situation where the water has a slightly higher EC than the roots, this way the roots will absorb some nutrition.
So, if you have a falling EC with the same level of water, this is good, it means the plant is eating.
If you have a rising EC with the same level of water, this is bad, your plant is leeching nutrients, so increase the EC until you get a falling or static EC.
Next, you mention ph.
Your procedure for mixing nutes and adding ph- is about right, however I would make 1 subtle adjustment to what you are doing.
DO not use neat ph-, it is far too easy to put in too much and overcorrect.
So use diluted ph-
I dilute 10ml of ph- into a 2l bottle of water. So I can put in 200ml of this ph- solution, which is actually only 1ml of ph-.
This is far easier to work with (and less dangerous)
You got it spot on with the H2O2
Canna Aktivator (the shelf name for Canna's trichaderma CAN be used in hydro, but is difficult to use since it is in powder form.
I use it in hydro at the root cube stage, sprinkling some ontot he bare roots before placing the rockwool cubes into the clay pellets in the netpots. A similar but in my opinion more effective friendly is Mycorrhizae fungus. This effectively attaches itself to your roots, more of less doubling the root mass, so it not only protects the roots, but also acts for water intake too. Both can be used together and many products are available specifically for hydro but they tend to be very expensive, Great White and VooDoo juice are 2 I have used.
More air to the roots is always good.
You have a reasonable amount of air, around 0.5l of air per l in the buckets. I prefer to use a min of 1l of air per l of water but the main thing is that the surface of the water looks like it is boiling.
I have not used Aquashield but my understanding is it is an enzyme & beneficial treatment for hydro setups. Beneficials are good, I am a fan as you probably guessed from what I said about Tricha & Myco. I am also a huge fan of Enzymes since they eat decaying organic material such as old dead roots.
I am pretty sure AN VooDoo juice has all of these together in one package but is expensive.
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DWC (03-07-12), urban grower (02-07-12)
Hello Woody J, hope your well? THANK YOU so much for explaining E.C so well ! I actually am starting to get it - It takes me a while,lol ! And I'm definitely going to use your method of diluting the ph- in a 2L bottle & just use increments of that ! Thank you for all your great advise & Help sir. Right, update time: Last night i adjusted my mix tank & raised the E.C to 1.2 & then adjusted the PH to 6.0 ( a little high but i thought if they r dropping it might take longer to drop out of range ). I then checked all 3 pots PH levels before emptying them refilling them to keep tabs on any drops in ph etc ( They were in just water & cannazyme for 24hrs as they showed signs of salt build up etc ) So even in just ph'd 5.8 water Pot 2 the big girl, had dropped down to 4.2 in 24hrs ? the other two pots( the ones with damaged leaves ) had both stayed stable ?! On all 3 plants the roots are white & healthy, No slime or bad smells ? So I then emptied & refilled with the fresh mix ec 1.2 ph 6 . So Im hoping tonight's readings are gonna b stable or risen slightly, fingers crossed ! I will update asap. Thank you once again for all your help & great advice on nutrients & enzymes & beneficials Woody
PS next grow im going to switch nutrients & go with Dutch Pro, would it be ok to use voodoo juice with Dutch pro or is there something else i should use ? Im sorry to ask all this, I should of sorted it by now but i had some very bad advice from my local hydro store & they always try to sell me the most expensive products & give me bad advice ! Any input on a good line up of products to use in dwc would be great
I was just looking at AN's "Sensi grow n Bloom ph perfect" I like the look of this mmmm might have to try them after all !
Right just finished taking E.C & PH readings : I think Woody J has sussed it By raising the E.C ! Well the 2 bad pots have risen in ph to 6.1 from 6 over 24hrs But their E.C has risen from 1.2 to now 1.3 is this ok ? Unfortunately my big girl has dropped in PH to 5.6, so she is dropping but at least not down to 3.9 this time ! Big girl has dropped her E.C to 1.0, so she needs some more nute's. Things do look better to me but im going to keep a very close watch. I hope thats the end of checking to find my ph at 3.2 !!!!! I will update tomorrow but for now i think there ok Thank you so much & HUGE props to woody J
I forgot to mention they are all drinking but not as much as normal ? maybe a 1-3 inch drop on water line so about 3 or so litres
Last edited by DWC; 02-07-12 at 07:16 PM.
Hi DWC. Sorry to see you are having problems. The first batch of pics you put up look to me as though you could have a spider mite problem. Especially the pic on this link http://www.thctalk.com/cannabis-foru...7&d=1340894238. I may be way off track but it will only take a minute to check. Is there any sign of spider web?
Of all the things I have lost in life - I miss my mind the most.
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Hi Lazee Thank you for your help ! Spider mites was my 1st thought so I was there with my 60x 150x scope & couldn't see any signs of a mite infest or eggs or any insect or webbing so I don't think it's mites. But thank you for taking the time to help Lazee I think it is a number of things contributing to it, like Nute lock out & bit of calcium def too but I'm really not sure ?! I'm hoping it stabilizes now !!
In post 16, you had been sitting them in just water and the ph dropped.
If you remember what I said about the EC INSIDE the roots being higher than the water, they will leech nutrients. In this case, it looks like they leeched out some P, which dropped the ph.
Something just struck me. Did you sit your rockwool/clay pellets in ph'd water for 24 hours before use? This can help prevent ph fluctuations.
Voodoo juice is expensive but it is fine to be used with DP nutrients.
DP are made and formulated by weed growers, the same as AN use weed growers to test all their products, so both are good nutrients and I would happily recommend them.
AN Sensi is what I have been using for the last 6 years and am a huge fan of it. With the ph perfect line, I still set the ph to 5.8 but there is nowhere near as much fluctuation and I rarely get deficiencies with it.
As for grow shops, they are like the tax man or police, a necessary evil. We have to buy our kit from somewhere and it is unfortunate that the industry on both sides of the water is full of idiots giving questionable advice.
What I would say is, never buy anything on the recommendation of anyone in a grow shop, always double check their suggestions here first. You may get differing opinions but you will then have a balance of opinions on which to base a decision, rather than just taking someones words for something who has a vested interest. We dont, we want you to be successfull and have nothing other than participation and friendship at stake, not financial gain.
On the 2 plants where the EC rose, raise their EC to 1.3, on Big girl, keep it at 1.2
The drinking should slow a little until they get used to the new EC but as long as the water is dropping, thats the main thing.
Sounds like things are turning.
Nice one. W
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