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Thread: PH dropping extremely fast and stopping at 4.8, please help!!!

  1. #1

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    Default PH dropping extremely fast and stopping at 4.8, please help!!!

    Hi guys, I'm fresh to the forum but by no means fresh to growing, I've just got over a 2 year battle with a pythium problem in my system, as I was mistaking the symptoms for other problems, anyways after I've discovered the problem, corrected it by disinfecting the room and system, the roots started to shoot out white and I continued to use pythoff on and off through changes.

    Fast forward 2 weeks I had my levels as follows:
    pH 6.0
    EC 1.4
    19.0°c
    canna a+b aqua Veg
    no pythoff in the system

    Using R/O water with canna calmag to EC 0.4-0.5 as base water.

    Air temps and rh
    Day 24-25° 50-65% rh

    Night 18-19° 60-72% rh

    Plant growth is great, they are pretty large and are not showing any signs of stress, root growth has slowed considerably but they still have large balls nearly the size of a football each one and are slightly discoloured but not brown.

    Now here's my problem

    pH suddenly started to drop rapidly and water consumption is very low

    pH is dropping at 0.1 around every 35-40 minutes

    Water consumption is around 1l per day per plant

    These to me are extremes and in 10 years I've never seen anything like it.

    My first attempt at trying to rectify consisted of raising EC to 1.6 as the EC did drop slightly and adding pythoff, this did not work.

    My second attempt was dropping to 0.8 EC that didn't work.

    My third attempt was just using pure R/O water with cal mag only, this did not work.

    I have now put back to 1.3 EC and set pH at 6.2 in the reservoir.

    Once the water hit the system, the pH raised to 6.5 and stayed steady for 6-10 hours then began to drop

    My next test is going to be pure R/O water for 2 days and see if that makes any difference or try pure tap water?

    As said I've never experienced this before so would greatly appreciate any input and ideas,

    If there's anything I've missed that would make a difference to the situation please let me know

    I have attached images from my guardian log so you can see exactly what's happening

    P.S PH stops dropping at 4.8?????
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    Last edited by Yiannis; 18-11-19 at 06:21 PM.

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  3. #2

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    This should help....


    (Credit to the author Woody J)


    Water level EC PH Solution
    Static Static Static Plant not feeding/drinking, change EC, check meters. Usually, lowering the EC a little should get the plant feeding again
    Static Static Rising Ph buffers probably raising ph. This is usual. Having a static water level is not though, so again, a slight reduction in EC or a res change should resolve this.
    Static Static Falling Usual cause of this is when media has been rinsed at a lower ph than you require.
    The other possibility is that too much CO2 has been pumped into the water. See Note 1.
    Change your res and look at the volume of air pumped plus look at your air source.
    Static Rising Static Plant is leeching nutrition, raise EC. Note 2
    Static Rising Rising Plant leeching nutrition, Raise EC. An unusual state. The rising ph is probably caused by what nutrient leeching back.
    If these are alkaline, it will lead to the rise in ph. Could also be ph buffers.
    Static Rising Falling As above but be aware of the acid rain effect mentioned in note 1. Res change, plus increase in EC.
    Static Falling Static Plant eating but not drinking. Not ideal. Lower EC or res change
    Static Falling Rising As above but rising ph is a better sign. Lower EC slightly or res change.
    Static Falling Falling Falling ph along with falling EC but no drop in water level suggests a res change. Could also be an acid rain effect as per note 1. Depending on other symptoms, lowering EC after res change.
    Falling Static Static Perfect conditions. EC and ph are at the correct level.
    Falling Static Rising Normal state most people encounter. Nothing to worry about, carry on doing what you are doing unless other plant symptoms.
    Falling Static Falling Res change plus a change of EC. Lower EC if over 1.4, raise EC if lower than 1.0
    Falling Rising Static Plant is drinking more than eating, lower EC.
    Falling Rising Rising Plant is drinking more than eating, lower EC
    Falling Rising Falling Plant is drinking more than eating, lower EC. Also, res change due to possible acid rain problem.
    Falling Falling Static Hungry plant, raise EC. Very good situation to be in. Nute buffers are working and plant is taking a balance of nutrients.
    Falling Falling Rising Almost as above, usually considered almost perfect, raise EC slightly.
    Falling Falling Falling Res change. Potential acid rain issue but plant is still eating & drinking. Raise EC on new res



    Regards BL

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  5. #3

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    Thank you very much for that, very helpful. ??

    My only problem is now I need to check c02 levels as I've tried everything else, gonna need to find a meter of some kind

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    I feel for you mate as I have been having almost exactly the same problem. From my very first grow in a new RDWC system I had root rot it continued to rear its ugly head again for 3 full grows.

    I have now adapted my system to a kind of Bubbleponics top fed with lots of air space between the bottom of the pots (20 litre) and the water level. I have also removed all air stones and rely on a waterfall into the epicenter to supply the dissolved oxygen into the system. The roots have grown out of the bottom of the pots (normal plastic pots) to create a secondary root system which was not intentional but seems to be working....Apart from PH drop which started around week 3-4 of flower and caused what looked like cal/mag deficiency, even though I knew there was plenty cal/mag in there for them.

    In this system my roots are pearly white for the first time which is a relief.... But this dam PH drop is baffling me.

    I was feeding quite low @ 1.1 with a background of 0.2 I decided to go lower and that didn't help. I have now gone higher over the last 2 days, plants look OK lovely and green but the PH is dropping by a full point from 6.2 to low 5's overnight. I have decided to up the ec a bit more as lowering just did not work it is just a case of holding my nerve for a few days as at the moment I have no idea what is going on. I am hoping the PH drop is due to the plants being under fed in the first place. The good thing is they are drinking plenty.

    I do hope you don't have the rot back but in the past I have kidded myself that beige roots were OK and stuck my head in the sand. Now I have white roots I know they were not 100% right.

    This is part of a post by Woody J who created the chart that Bud has kindly posted. It did get me thinking. I will let you know how I get on with the higher feed. Best of luck my friend.

    Here is a post from Woody J.

    I think it can be very confusing what to do when you have what appears to be nutrient burn, the automatic response is to lower the EC. However, generally, this just makes things worse.

    The key to understanding what is happening is the water levels as I mentioned. If they are more or less static when into flower, something is wrong. The issue then becomes what to do about it?
    Increase or decrease EC?

    Once you understand how plants roots work, the answer is obvious.
    They work in a very similar way to an R/O machine. So nutrition will flow from the higher EC to the lower EC in a reverse osmosis process.
    Which means, if your EC is climbing, you need to increase EC to a level that stops it rising.
    If you have hard water over 0.4, it may mean feeding with an EC as high as 1.8-2.0. This is something I wouldnt normally advise in DWC.

    However, if you keep in your mind that a "normal" EC of 1.2 usually brings decent results in DWC, this should be the nutrient level on top of background EC.

    With both guys who have had issues who contributed to this thread having high background EC's, I think this is the source of the problems. So being brave will pay dividends.

    Remember, the key to this is what is happening to the water levels.
    Good luck guys.
    W

    Last edited by toblue; 18-11-19 at 07:50 PM.
    TO GROW A PLANT YOU NEED TO THINK LIKE A PLANT


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    Forgot to add I run a live system with with Hydroguard, although this may not be the case now I have upped my EC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yiannis View Post
    Thank you very much for that, very helpful. ??

    My only problem is now I need to check c02 levels as I've tried everything else, gonna need to find a meter of some kind
    Mate

    Increase the ec you roots are making there own levels no matter what you’re doing, just up the feed little by little and it should sort it’s self

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    A big thanks to everyone for your replies, all very much appreciated, I ordered a co2 reader hoping I could solve it, however upon checking again today, the pH had suddenly levelled out, big hooray, so I decided to check the roots out and can see loads of fresh shoots which is another good sign,

    I was getting worried as I've had non stop headaches, but now I might have finally sorted it, I think I may have upped the feed to fast for them and they just didn't like it, I think it also made it worse by keep changing the water every 2 days trying to fix it, the solution they have now was in for 3 days and I guess they just needed to settle, I'm gonna leave them another couple of days and give them a fresh drink upping it slightly, I also decided to drop the water temp by 1° just to be safe

    the worst thing about all this and root rot in particular when it's being misdiagnosed is it makes you question your ability and makes you lose love for the hobby.

    I've added pics from the guardian so you can see the sudden change
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    When dealing with the pythium problem I decided to use the following:

    3 UV tubes hanging in the reservoir
    An inline UV filter
    I disinfected the system with virkon cleaner
    Then used pythoff
    And hydroguard to reintroduce the good bacteria

    PS I done all the necessary research regarding UV lights for hydroponics and what they do, so I don't have them on all the time just before I add nutes to the reservoir and and the day before a water change in the system, and also I know pythoff kills all bacteria good and bad so tried to do pythoff and hydroguard with water changes in between

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    When dealing with the pythium problem I decided to use the following:

    3 UV tubes hanging in the reservoir
    An inline UV filter
    I disinfected the system with virkon cleaner
    Then used pythoff
    And hydroguard to reintroduce the good bacteria

    PS I done all the necessary research regarding UV lights for hydroponics and what they do, so I don't have them on all the time just before I add nutes to the reservoir and and the day before a water change in the system, and also I know pythoff kills all bacteria good and bad so tried to do pythoff and hydroguard with water changes in between

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    This seems like a very complicated system but sounds wicked

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