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Thread: DLI for autoflowers

  1. #21

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    Bear in mind when calculating your DLI you’re measuring PPFD at the canopy…

    There should be another 45-60cm of foliage (solar panels) below that which would receive a lower DLI.
    B1unt XIII: Chemdogging & Sour Diesel - https://www.thctalk.com/cannabis-for...post1071304159

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  3. #22

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    This got a little off the mark. Which is fine but I found myself lost in the sauce.
    Looking at these graphs I'd previously seen that didn't have 'autoflower' anywhere on them and revisiting familiar concepts.

    So, I'm going to drop this video to my past self and simplify:



    Run your lights at about 50% for 24/0 and about 60% for 20/4 when growing autos.

    Logically, autos would finish at the same time and have the same yield in the following scenarios:

    4x4 tent, 480 watts, 12 hours
    4x4 tent, 240 watts (dimmed 50%), 24 hours

    But we've heard Farmer's tale of growing autos under 12 hours that took 17 weeks AND were chopped early.

    In regards to the line graph of supposed optimal DLI from Wolverine, who I do not consider a 'source' because I have never seen his credentials, I wonder if it still makes sense to dim the lights when autos are about to finish stretching and go into full flower. A lot of us have noticed burnt tips during the transition with autos under LEDs. Perhaps the fix is a temporary reduction in DLI, mimicking the reduction when you switch to 12/12 with photos. This I plan to investigate on my next full run of a single strain.

    Understanding that your environment, nutrient availability and genetics will all pull on how much DLI is useful, I think it's safe to say that:

    a. A light with a large footprint that has 1/2 the power of a light with the same footprint will suffice for autos under 24/7 lighting.
    b. CO2 supplementation is the first bottleneck assuming proper environment and nutrient availability
    c. There exists only a few inches in the light "column" that has the optimal PPFD/DLI (optimal bud still grows below this level)
    d. This whole conversation has been geared towards highest yield as the end goal; perhaps not as important for some. Once jars are full, yield is secondary imo.
    e. The internet doesn't have a whole bunch of qualified research on autoflowers and DLI
    f. This forum is better than other forums in general.

    This thought exercise is not yet complete. Thanks for hanging out and keeping the convo open.

    Cheers
    B


    "The footsteps of the farmer is the best fertilizer."

    Welcome to The Barnyard

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  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by barney_b View Post
    This got a little off the mark. Which is fine but I found myself lost in the sauce.
    Looking at these graphs I'd previously seen that didn't have 'autoflower' anywhere on them and revisiting familiar concepts.

    So, I'm going to drop this video to my past self and simplify:

    Run your lights at about 50% for 24/0 and about 60% for 20/4 when growing autos.

    Logically, autos would finish at the same time and have the same yield in the following scenarios:

    4x4 tent, 480 watts, 12 hours
    4x4 tent, 240 watts (dimmed 50%), 24 hours

    But we've heard Farmer's tale of growing autos under 12 hours that took 17 weeks AND were chopped early.

    In regards to the line graph of supposed optimal DLI from Wolverine, who I do not consider a 'source' because I have never seen his credentials, I wonder if it still makes sense to dim the lights when autos are about to finish stretching and go into full flower. A lot of us have noticed burnt tips during the transition with autos under LEDs. Perhaps the fix is a temporary reduction in DLI, mimicking the reduction when you switch to 12/12 with photos. This I plan to investigate on my next full run of a single strain.

    Understanding that your environment, nutrient availability and genetics will all pull on how much DLI is useful, I think it's safe to say that:

    a. A light with a large footprint that has 1/2 the power of a light with the same footprint will suffice for autos under 24/7 lighting.
    b. CO2 supplementation is the first bottleneck assuming proper environment and nutrient availability
    c. There exists only a few inches in the light "column" that has the optimal PPFD/DLI (optimal bud still grows below this level)
    d. This whole conversation has been geared towards highest yield as the end goal; perhaps not as important for some. Once jars are full, yield is secondary imo.
    e. The internet doesn't have a whole bunch of qualified research on autoflowers and DLI
    f. This forum is better than other forums in general.

    This thought exercise is not yet complete. Thanks for hanging out and keeping the convo open.

    Cheers
    B
    I very much like 'f.' and whole heartedly agree! lol

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  7. #24

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    I'm not sure what causes leaf tip discolouration during the flowering stretch. Although I'm pretty sure it is not ec related unless they need higher ec when stretching. Could be pH, in that during the flowering stretch, they may need different amounts of some minerals, which would mean a different pH for optimum. I now think of it as 'stretch marks' and as the stretch marks have no noticeable impact on yield, I ignore them.

    If co2 is a bottleneck, then increasing the extraction will increase yield. I'm into film photography and having the correct amount of agitation is very important when developing film. With no agitation, the developer becomes exhausted at point of contact. Agitation puts non exhausted developer into contact with the film. Back to plants, having internal air movement is not enough if the extraction is weak. That's similar to agitating film developer that is already spent.

    The lower the light, the more difference a few inches make. Conversely, the higher the light, the wider the 'good zone'. If there is a 3" good zone with the light say 15" away, that could be a 12" good zone if the light is 60" away. Obviously more power needed with high up lighting but being dialled in costs.

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  9. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farmer Geddon View Post
    I'm not sure what causes leaf tip discolouration during the flowering stretch. Although I'm pretty sure it is not ec related unless they need higher ec when stretching. Could be pH, in that during the flowering stretch, they may need different amounts of some minerals, which would mean a different pH for optimum. I now think of it as 'stretch marks' and as the stretch marks have no noticeable impact on yield, I ignore them.

    If co2 is a bottleneck, then increasing the extraction will increase yield. I'm into film photography and having the correct amount of agitation is very important when developing film. With no agitation, the developer becomes exhausted at point of contact. Agitation puts non exhausted developer into contact with the film. Back to plants, having internal air movement is not enough if the extraction is weak. That's similar to agitating film developer that is already spent.

    The lower the light, the more difference a few inches make. Conversely, the higher the light, the wider the 'good zone'. If there is a 3" good zone with the light say 15" away, that could be a 12" good zone if the light is 60" away. Obviously more power needed with high up lighting but being dialled in costs.
    "stretch marks" You've done it again. Bravo, will be using this term along with 'nitrogen reducer'.

    Okay so we up the exhaust and the little heat we do have from the LED driver is out and we have to add a heater. Cheaper than adding CO2 probably but I don't know. In summer time that won't matter. Less HVAC.

    Good point on stretching the sweet spot with additional height and power. Might help with heat in the winter time too. Unless your LED is entirely "too" efficient in which case you've no heat at all.

    Cheers
    B

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  11. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by barney_b View Post
    "stretch marks" You've done it again. Bravo, will be using this term along with 'nitrogen reducer'.

    Okay so we up the exhaust and the little heat we do have from the LED driver is out and we have to add a heater. Cheaper than adding CO2 probably but I don't know. In summer time that won't matter. Less HVAC.

    Good point on stretching the sweet spot with additional height and power. Might help with heat in the winter time too. Unless your LED is entirely "too" efficient in which case you've no heat at all.

    Cheers
    B
    I don't need a heater when I run auto's as long as the house is comfortable,I did run a heater during lights out for my photo's though.

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  13. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by barney_b View Post
    This got a little off the mark. Which is fine but I found myself lost in the sauce.
    Looking at these graphs I'd previously seen that didn't have 'autoflower' anywhere on them and revisiting familiar concepts.

    So, I'm going to drop this video to my past self and simplify:


    Run your lights at about 50% for 24/0 and about 60% for 20/4 when growing autos.

    Logically, autos would finish at the same time and have the same yield in the following scenarios:

    4x4 tent, 480 watts, 12 hours
    4x4 tent, 240 watts (dimmed 50%), 24 hours

    But we've heard Farmer's tale of growing autos under 12 hours that took 17 weeks AND were chopped early.
    I watched that video during the first smoke of the day & when it ended I realised I heard nothing

    Farmer was probably lighting those auto's with candles though as he loves to save money


    Quote Originally Posted by barney_b View Post
    In regards to the line graph of supposed optimal DLI from Wolverine, who I do not consider a 'source' because I have never seen his credentials,
    WolverineGrown is a legit coco grower from Michigan who's on the panel of the Grand Master Level show (@wolverinegrown - He also had the most hilarious hate-meme campaign running against Foose lighting & their claim of 10lbs a light ).

    That's not Wolverine's graph it was taken from a cannabis lighting guide written by Fluence's director of cultivation support: https://gpnmag.com/wp-content/upload...ngCannabis.pdf

    If mods remove the link (which they won't because it's to a PDF we can all enjoy ) Google: "2019CannGuide_GPN1218_LightingCannabis.pdf "










    Quote Originally Posted by barney_b View Post
    I wonder if it still makes sense to dim the lights when autos are about to finish stretching and go into full flower. A lot of us have noticed burnt tips during the transition with autos under LEDs. Perhaps the fix is a temporary reduction in DLI, mimicking the reduction when you switch to 12/12 with photos.
    Isn't that more likely to be caused by adding a PK supplement at the same time? I'd typically associate burned tips with a plant not being able to process nutrients (I notice you said burned tips, not light stress or bleaching)...?

    Which thinking back on I've had my fair share of


    Quote Originally Posted by barney_b View Post
    I plan to investigate on my next full run of a single strain.



    Quote Originally Posted by barney_b View Post
    Understanding that your environment, nutrient availability and genetics will all pull on how much DLI is useful, I think it's safe to say that:

    a. A light with a large footprint that has 1/2 the power of a light with the same footprint will suffice for autos under 24/7 lighting.
    b. CO2 supplementation is the first bottleneck assuming proper environment and nutrient availability
    c. There exists only a few inches in the light "column" that has the optimal PPFD/DLI (optimal bud still grows below this level)
    d. This whole conversation has been geared towards highest yield as the end goal; perhaps not as important for some. Once jars are full, yield is secondary imo.
    e. The internet doesn't have a whole bunch of qualified research on autoflowers and DLI
    f. This forum is better than other forums in general.
    I really don't think the whole "yield" thing is an argument, I know people like to say "I'd rather have a 1/4 of good weed than an ounce of mediocre" & I think we'd mostly agree...

    My take on it is if you look after a plant properly she'll grow bigger, stronger, happier, faster & will yield more. If you fuck your grow up the same plant will grow slowly, be weak & yield not much poor quality product - Which plant would you like? (In this case less isn't more, in more than one sense ).

    I get people say "growing for yield hurts quality" but I figure that's more down to loading them up with nutrients & trying to get them to stack as much as possible.


    Quote Originally Posted by barney_b View Post
    This thought exercise is not yet complete. Thanks for hanging out and keeping the convo open.

    Cheers
    B
    It never will be, these conversations will become legendary once Google searches start picking these threads up


    My next grow is probably getting something like 32 DLI (for my electric bill if nothing else). I'll see how that goes & make an assessment from there.

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  15. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by barney_b View Post
    Okay so we up the exhaust and the little heat we do have from the LED driver is out and we have to add a heater. Cheaper than adding CO2 probably but I don't know. In summer time that won't matter. Less HVAC.
    As long as you're replenishing the volume of the tent correctly upping the exhaust won't make Co2 more available (just turn it over faster).

    If you want your tent warmer duct the exhaust from the bottom with the intake at the top. Draw the "little" heat the light produces through the canopy.

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  17. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by B1unt View Post
    As long as you're replenishing the volume of the tent correctly upping the exhaust won't make Co2 more available (just turn it over faster).

    If you want your tent warmer duct the exhaust from the bottom with the intake at the top. Draw the "little" heat the light produces through the canopy.
    Good advice with that B1unt, since cold air drops and hot air rises, this would help cool from top to bottom.

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  19. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by B1unt View Post
    I watched that video during the first smoke of the day & when it ended I realised I heard nothing

    Farmer was probably lighting those auto's with candles though as he loves to save money




    WolverineGrown is a legit coco grower from Michigan who's on the panel of the Grand Master Level show (@wolverinegrown - He also had the most hilarious hate-meme campaign running against Foose lighting & their claim of 10lbs a light ).
    Fair enough. Just added him on insta. It looks like a rabbit hole and a whole lot of ..... oh... B1unt are you actually WolverineGrown?


    That's not Wolverine's graph it was taken from a cannabis lighting guide written by Fluence's director of cultivation support: https://gpnmag.com/wp-content/upload...ngCannabis.pdf

    If mods remove the link (which they won't because it's to a PDF we can all enjoy ) Google: "2019CannGuide_GPN1218_LightingCannabis.pdf "
    This was a good read. I think it adds value. Thank you for this. Help me correlate this to autos that don't suffer a lighting change. Do you think that dip is still going to be worthwhile?


    Isn't that more likely to be caused by adding a PK supplement at the same time? I'd typically associate burned tips with a plant not being able to process nutrients (I notice you said burned tips, not light stress or bleaching)...?

    Which thinking back on I've had my fair share of
    I never add PK until weeks after the stretch in coco, and I still see it in soil which isn't getting any changes during that time period. Which is why I want to see if dimming the lights during the stretch would avoid the burnt tips. The burnt tips don't really bother me, but it IS curious that it's so common under LEDs. I'm thinking it's a learning curve thing.


    I really don't think the whole "yield" thing is an argument, I know people like to say "I'd rather have a 1/4 of good weed than an ounce of mediocre" & I think we'd mostly agree...

    My take on it is if you look after a plant properly she'll grow bigger, stronger, happier, faster & will yield more. If you fuck your grow up the same plant will grow slowly, be weak & yield not much poor quality product - Which plant would you like? (In this case less isn't more, in more than one sense ).

    I get people say "growing for yield hurts quality" but I figure that's more down to loading them up with nutrients & trying to get them to stack as much as possible.
    Fair, and I love this argument. Won't the healthiest plant naturally yield the most and be the most potent? I follow that and that makes sense. But just for the sake of argument, what if growing at

    45 DLI yields 1000g @ 18% THC vs
    40 DLI yields 900g @ 20% THC

    Super simplified and the math works out on purpose for this example. But shift that 20% to 25%... There would be an argument that some would want to chase the smaller yield and stronger buds. This is assuming that the increased DLI degraded or otherwise hindered THC production. That would, potentially, mean lessened terpenes as well..

    Lot of assumptions and questions. I don't pretend to know all this stuff.

    It never will be, these conversations will become legendary once Google searches start picking these threads up
    My next grow is probably getting something like 32 DLI (for my electric bill if nothing else). I'll see how that goes & make an assessment from there.
    Now we're getting back to the experiments. Love it. Thanks for taking the time B1unt. It's honestly sometimes challenging to go through so much info and remain conversational. I hold your opinion highly because I know you're a rabbit hole kind of guy on an entirely different level.

    Cheers!
    B

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