Yellowing, droopy, clawing leaves. No idea what I'm doing wrong

[NexSacramentum]

Hi guys,

I did try to compare the stickied thread with the def/tox pictures but I'm so out of the loop I honestly can't tell what's what by looking at that and then referring to the plants, so I'm asking for a bit of hand-holding.
I got back in to growing after years break and my skills are rusty to say the least.

I'm doing DWC without an air pump (not sure if to refer to it as Kratky as I'm refreshing water and nutes every week?)

I had Bruce Banner on the go a few months back, it was perfect up until a couple of weeks after flowering.
It started yellowing hard, despite what I thought pH and EC were great (pH was 5.5ish mostly. It drfited above 6.3 a few times as I was away but I fixed it as soon as I was available.). I was gently raising EC as I know feed has to increase during flowering but this didn't help. Plant leaves turned completely yellow, even the veins. Leaf stems are turning purple, as well, which is what made me think it was a nitrogen issue.

I cloned the plant when it was healthy. Now, the clones are doing the same. They started off great, a lovely deep green, and now they're looking like there's a nute deficiency. Leaves are a little droopy, some clawing, too. Pics to be included.

The pH is 5.5-6.3 and EC is usually between 1.5-2.

My set-up:

Cupboard
20litre hydro buckets
Tap water @ 550u/s (hard water WOO!)
240w LED panel @ 80% to control heat
Dehumidifier at the door opening for air flow and heat control
Ionic Hydro Grow Nutrients @ 1.5-2.0u/s fresh each week (sometimes it goes to 2 weeks but rarely)
Ionic pH Down
pH @ 5.5 drifts up to 6.3
Air temp - 26C
Canopy temp - 25C
Humidity - 43%

And yes I know it's a cheap chinese probe, but I tested it against my old Apera EC20 and it's spot on.

I've been doing some reading, and apparently high EC can cause all these symptoms, but I'm apprehensive as there's no burn that I can see, though I've been out the game for years so I've no idea.






Any input would be great.
Thanks guys.

[Shaun]

Id probably have a look at your magnesium, low levels can reduce phosphorus uptake which would explain your red stems.

[Jingo]

Whenever a plant is doing well with deep water culture and then it starts to droop and turn down as it gets large, you're talking about not enough air in the reservoir.

I personally wouldn't even bother with deep water culture without an air pump. It can be difficult to avoid root problems especially rot if the temperatures get too high. If you are really bent on growing without an air pump I would stick to one plant in a very large res.

It's also pretty rare to be able to grow deep water culture without putting some kind of additive in your Reservoir like H2O2 or some plant oils to help decrease the likelihood of root rot. Take a few pictures of your roots let's see what they look like.

[NexSacramentum]

@Shaun - That's a good shout. Doing a bit more reading, I might be getting over-zealous with the feeding. I've got two plants, so I've reduced one to 1.5m/s. Apparently excess calcium can do weird things and block a few nutrients including magnesium, and I've got enough minerals in my tap water already so the EC may have been too high? I've kept the EC for the other clone the same, and I'll be grabbing some cal/mag just in case.

@Jingo - I think I might've been a bit deceitful using "droopy" to describe it; Leaves are strong, rigid and can hold their own weight, they're just.. angled downward? They're not floppy, just opposite to "praying". Unless that is what the start of what low oxygen does then fuck me sideways and ignore. I'm pretty sure it's not, though; I swapped the water out once every week instead of using the same water through 'til the end. The only reason I didn't use an airstone/pump is noise levels, but I've thrown one in with one plant and lowered the EC, and kept the other plant under the same original conditions to see what does what.
As to root rot, I've never had to use anything to control it as it's never been an issue. Had one scare a few years back but it turned out it was discolouration from the nutrients.
Took this pic of the roots about 10 minutes ago as I got distracted stroking the cat.

Edit: Another reason I lowered the EC was due to what I thought was nutrient precipitation. When I took the bucket lid off to change the res, it looked like there were sugar crystals floating on the top of the water, and my only assumption is precip.

[Jingo]

I'd say you've been experiencing some root dye off, maybe not totally rot. Usually Roots should look bright white and with plants the size of yours they should be three to four times as many roots as you got there. Healthy Roots will feel kind of squeaky clean if you're rubbing between your fingers and unhealthy Roots will feel kind of slimy.

[NexSacramentum]

I'd say you've been experiencing some root dye off, maybe not totally rot. Usually Roots should look bright white and with plants the size of yours they should be three to four times as many roots as you got there. Healthy Roots will feel kind of squeaky clean if you're rubbing between your fingers and unhealthy Roots will feel kind of slimy.

They feel squeaky clean, like freshly washed hair with no conditioner. No slime, no smell. Strange thing is, and I'm not being dismissive here, that I've used the same set-up before, and everything has been great. However. I've just had another look and, whilst there are a good number of bright white roots.... sigh. I found a couple of these sites. This brown stuff feels exactly the same as the white roots; no slime, no smell, squeaky clean



I guess it's time for peroxide?

[Fluffy bud]

Mine once did this and it turned out to be the ph pen giving dodgy reading

Sent from my SM-F731B using Tapatalk

[NexSacramentum]

I'm not being dismissive with what I'm about to say, as I actually agree with you somewhat, but this is my experience with the pH pens. It might shed some light in to what I'm doing wrong:

Bought a Yinmik similar to the one in the pictures, absolutely rocked for two months, then I got careless and didn't clean it allowing salts to build up. I assumed the readings were dodgy as this was when my first round of Hulkberry/BB started turning yellow. I decided on an Apera PC60 to save... £30 lol... which I cross-referenced the readings to the blue Yinmik. pH readings were very similar, but the Apera couldn't decide on a stable EC but both were within range. Wasn't happy, bought the Yinmik in the pictures, compared the readings after calibrating it and all 3 had similar results. pH was maybe within 0.05 range of all three.

Which is where my confusion stems from. As far as what I've 'seen' from readings, nothing is wrong, but it obviously is. I did more reading and I'm down to either incorect pH or too much nutrient causing lock-out. I'm leaning more toward pH as the other clone I have is at something between 1.9-2.1m/s @ pH 5.5 drift to 6.1, drinking about an inch of water a day and showing signs of clawing and burn, but also showing similar signs on a much lower degree.

Either way, I've bought some of that Orca liquid instead of peroxide because advertising works on me when I'm desperate and AG Garden Friendly Fungicide requires maths to dilute. I'm investing in either BlueLab or Hanna Instruments stand-alone pH/EC pens instead of combination, most likely BlueLab as I've seen people swear by them.
If things aren't better in a month or so, I'll just have to start over. I've popped two other beans anyway. Just a bit of a bummer!

May I ask what instruments you use to measure your res? Manufacturer is fine; I'll feel like a pauper if you say BlueLabs Guardian

[NexSacramentum]

Hi again, guys!
Sorry to revive the thread, but I just wanted to update that I've managed to fix the problem despite having no clue what was the issue, other than you lovely people pointing out my roots didn't look quite right.

What I did:

Day 1
I used Milton (sodium hypochlorite) at somewhere between 3-5ppm every day or every other day for, I think, 6-7 days in the bucket. I think 5ppm was the strength for the first couple of days before lowering it. I did this on a fresh water/nute mix. I lowered the EC from 2ms to around 1.5ms for the sickest plant, and around 1.8 for the other. I didn't see any positive or negative changes in root mass.

Day 2/3
I got my old Blagdon 2400 and put in 2 airstones in on full blast. The Orca never arrived, so I invested in Photosynthesis Plus. I used it at a 1:20 dilution with de-ionised water, then used 2ml of that in 17-19L. I let that bubble to mix for a few minutes, and then jugged water from the res over the hydroton every day.

Day 8-10
I started seeing quite a lot of fresh white roots poking through the hydroton. so I kept doing what I was doing. I pulled off the brown looking roots which, while not slimy or smelly, pulled off easily compared to the new white ones (I broke a few as collateral getting the brown roots out).

Day 11
I did some reading regarding my water and beneficials. I'm fortunate that the chlorine and chloramine didn't affect the beneficials too much. I've got SeaChem Prime lying around from owning turtles, so I dumped the res, mixed some Prime in with new water, mixed the nutes and pH down, allowed it to bubble to mix properly, and slowly pushed 1ml concentrated Photosynthesis Plus directly into the bucket while it was bubbling.

Day 16

Here we are. Pictures speak for themselves. They've exploded in the past few days. White roots went from about an 2-3" to what's in the pictures. I've bumped the EC to ~1.8ms for both plants and they are DRINKING. Water level falling, EC stable, pH rising. Such a simple fix. I want to thank everyone for their input, as it all got the cogs turning and ultimately a fix. I'm going to wait another 10-14 days to ensure recovery, then I think I'm going to flip. Thanks again, truly.

The smaller root bundle was the sickest plant, turning yellow/red/brown spots (left in original picture), while the bigger root mass is the plant on the right, that was starting to suffer but not quite as much as the other.
The one on the right isn't as bushy as she should be; I did a massive trim as literally zero light was reaching the bottom. She was twice as thick before that picture.

[Jingo]

Your roots are looking much better and the plants are also looking better. There's a big difference between bright white healthy roots and kind of brownish white not so healthy roots.