The Military/History Discussion Thread(NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH!)

[illearth67]

Ah, i got some new items for my original ww2 artifact collection last night! :-D

Hi thanks for telling us about your collection it would be great if you could tell us more about your collection and maybe even post some pics?
I want to show you guys something that you might find surprising.
You would expect the modern generation of tanks to be the best wouldn't you but when it comes down to it many of the WW2 designs still come high in the list of all time top tanks and even today the awesome T-34 still beats all comers though the Abrams comes close.Watch and learn.

[Azerbanphal]

Well the T34 had the revolutionary sloping armour so is kinda a forefather of all modern tanks.
You may find it interesting that The Challenger II outperforms the Abrams in pretty much all field tests.

[blurry-vision]

Yeh was gonna say the T34 was the best tank, plus the simple design meant the ruskis could build a fuckload of them.

Good thread though illearth, I often watch sky 531..I'm quite Interested in the Pacific War though as both my Grandads fought over there..

[illearth67]

Well the T34 had the revolutionary sloping armour so is kinda a forefather of all modern tanks.
You may find it interesting that The Challenger II outperforms the Abrams in pretty much all field tests.

Yes azer the sloping armor was a very simple and effective way of increasing protection without thicker armor but the Germans were slow to pick up on this although they did of course produce the mighty Panther.
The Panther is really just a heavyweight T-34 with thicker armor and a bigger gun. Now that would have been fine but the German's badly overengineered the suspension and it took too long to produce compared to the huge numbers of T-34's.
Basically the German strategy to produce fewer numbers of superior tanks failed them miserably.
However it has to be said that after D-Day what remained of the Panzer Divisions were split between France and Russia. Perhaps if they could have gathered their full strength in either theater they possibly could have held their own despite being heavily outnumbered.
Of course this is what the 1944 Ardennes "Battle of the Bulge" offensive was meant to achieve. The German plan was to split the British/American armies and then attack the Russians with everything they had.
Wether it could have worked will remain one of the many unanswered "what if's?" of WW2.
Anyway here are some good Panther vids.

[abemnik]

The problem with the Germans in WWII was they opened up to many fronts and the speed of their offensives meant the supply lines were to long ,during the winters in Russia their oil was no use due to it freezing whereas the Russians had been used to the cold and had developed better measures so the Germans lost top cover due to planes being grounded and tanks were immobilised due to the freezing conditions but the biggest mistake was taking on Russia before the UK had been defeated the same as Napoleon did before and history in wars oft repeats itself
Long supply lines even in the UK when the Jacobite rebellion created problems and therefore lo morale .
If Germany had gone ahead with Operation Sealion in 1940 the outcome would have been tottally different ,the RAF was down to under a hundred fighters on the day it was supposed to have started but for reasons known only to Wechracht commanders the offensive never went ahead and then the Russian theatre opened even though Stalin and Hitler had signed a treaty which promised a split of countries

[DHAKA BOY]

Good post. Me also, being a lover and not a fighter hate wars and all that comes with it. But its a very human thing, and whilst we exist it will, unfortunately continue.

However, being a techy, I do have admiration for the weaponary, but merely for its concept, not destructive nature.

I prefer the pre nuclear era equipment also - The aircraft especially. Nothing was designed from simulated algorithm's etc (eg Thats why cars are all looking more and more alike - not creative, mere outputs from a 'puter)- It was artistic and creative with a little 'fingers crossed' bucket and spade science. Look at some of those bombers. I have had the fortune to climb inside many. Haunting. Very basic and industrial - cables and tape everywhere (Like my grow room ). I would not even dare climb to >30K ft in one, let alone with the prospect of gunter in his ME 109 taking pot shots at me ! Such brave young men, with no thought for them selves and just pure courage and determination.

Thats the sad thing about wars - At a genetic level it removes some of the best from the gene pool. No more heroes......

On a poltical note....WWII - We (The allies) were resisting and fighting against the idea of a facist united europe under german control and rule....

Wait a minute.......................

[nuube]

a ww2 quote from hitler that has frightening similarities to the way some major governments seem to be behaving...
“The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed.”
Adolf Hitler

What David Icke calls 'The Totalitarian Tip-toe'.

[illearth67]

The problem with the Germans in WWII was they opened up to many fronts and the speed of their offensives meant the supply lines were to long ,during the winters in Russia their oil was no use due to it freezing whereas the Russians had been used to the cold and had developed better measures so the Germans lost top cover due to planes being grounded and tanks were immobilised due to the freezing conditions but the biggest mistake was taking on Russia before the UK had been defeated the same as Napoleon did before and history in wars oft repeats itself
Long supply lines even in the UK when the Jacobite rebellion created problems and therefore lo morale .
If Germany had gone ahead with Operation Sealion in 1940 the outcome would have been tottally different ,the RAF was down to under a hundred fighters on the day it was supposed to have started but for reasons known only to Wechracht commanders the offensive never went ahead and then the Russian theatre opened even though Stalin and Hitler had signed a treaty which promised a split of countries

Yes you make some very good points about the Germans being unprepared to cope with the Russian winters, especially during that first critical winter of 1941/42 when the fate of Moscow itself hung in the balance.
After all is said and done I would say that it was indeed the severe weather that helped the Russians survive that first offensive because they used the time to bring massive reinforcements via railway from Siberia to bolster the defenses around Moscow and even launched a partially succesful counter attack.
About the whole Sealion thing. You make a good point about the RAF's relative weakness during the Autumn of 1940 and that certainly would have hampered our ability to stop it but remember the Luftwaffe had taken even greater losses in the Battle of Britain so their ability to cover/support an invasion was diminished too.
I also think practical problems like the supposed shortage of invasion barges had a lot to do Sealion being cancelled and there was also the problem of timing.
Launching a seaborne invasion so late in the year would have been risky and would probably have meant fighting a winter land campaing in the UK in 1940/41.
And of course there was also the problem of the Royal Navy who would have been easily capable of intercepting any cross channel invasion fleet!
Remember also that Hitler fully expected Britain to make peace after the defeat of France. The UK was totally isolated. The US hadn't entered WW2 yet.
Logic would really dictate a negotiated peace in that situation so it really wasn't a big leap of faith to invade Russia befor Britain was defeated.
The war on two fronts only really became a reality for Germany after D-day up until then France was mainly used to rest and refit units that had been depleted in Russia.
,

[blurry-vision]

Thank god for radar is all you can say when it comes to the Germans not invading these shores..Battle of Britain anniversary now too.

[abemnik]

A UK winter warfare wouldnt really have bothered the Germans the Jaegger units were well trained in winter warfare and also at the forefront of it and tactics devised then are still in use now as a part of the marine and SAS mountain warfare syllabus, the UK was lucky in more ways the BEF was near exhaustion after Dunkirk the same year and most equipment was left on the beaches if it wasnt for the Russian front opening up it could have been a totally different thing and considering the Germans had only been rearming themselves from 1933 with some of the best experts have created some of nowadays weapons , the B2 stealth bomber was from a German design the cruise missile from a V1 doodlebug the V2 came to late the ME262 HE163 both jet planes before the Brits got their own Meteor , if the Yanks hadnt starved Japan of fuel pre Pearl Harbour they might not have been drawn into the whole affair , the German war machine was well oiled and well designed and with time who knows