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Thread: PH info and problem solving.

  1. #11

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    This is how I deal with PH

    Why do you want to know your runoff pH? Simple- it's an indication of how your water, fertilizer, and grow medium are interacting chemically.

    There are 3 measurements that are important to know when you are caring for plants growing in a soil or soilless medium.
    The first is the pH of your source water.
    Next is the pH of your nutrient solution after the fertilizers and supplements are added.
    Last is the pH of your soil. But that's the hard one! You can't just stick a pH meter in the dirt and get an accurate reading, and the cheap metal-probed meters that show this are usually not all that precise.

    So how does one determine soil pH accurately? With a runoff test! First, measure the pH of your tap water and record it. As an example, let's say that it is 7.0, exactly neutral.

    Now place the pot over a clean rinsed container and pour enough water through the soil to start dripping out the bottom. Collect about 4 ounces of runoff water. Check to see if it is discolored as well.

    Now, if you only have liquid indicator, which is just fine, pour this water into a clean small tube or the test vial that came with your pH testing kit.Add a few drops of indicator solution, shake, and read the color change.
    If you have a meter, simply stick the electrode in the water and read.

    Let's say that your runoff comes out at 6.5. How did that happen? The water passed through a more acidic matrix and dropped its pH. You can assume that your true soil pH is a couple tenths of a pH point lower than the runoff in this case- I'd assume about a 6.2. If it comes out HIGHER, just go in the opposite direction. If it came out 7.5, you can assume that you need to drop down from about 7.8.

    You want around 6.0-6.5 for a soilless mix, or 6.3-6.8 for soil.

    Pics:
    1- Propping up the plant over a container to catch runoff
    2- POuring clean water through the soil
    3- For liquid indicator, pour into clean vials
    4- Check the pH against the color chart
    5- Adjust the flush water if necessary

    How to test the pH of your soil mix

    Measuring the pH of soil is just as important as with hydro applications, but few people know how to test soil pH to see if it is within the optimum range for growing robust healthy plants. Here I will try to explain my method of testing any soil / soilless mix, enabling me to spot any problems and correct them if necessary.

    Firstly, wait till your soil has dried out and is due for its next watering schedule. Then take some plain water that you usually water your garden with, and adjust the pH to 7.0. You must make sure that you know the exact pH of the water going into your soil, and the neutral 7.0 is best, but anywhere from 6.5 – 7.0 will suffice.

    Then place your pot into a bowl of some sort to catch the runoff water, and then start to water your soil slowly (with your pH- corrected plain water) till the water starts to drip from the bottom.
    It’s the first drops of water that will give you the best reading of your soil, so make sure to water slowly till you see the first droplets. Then remove the pot from the bowl to eliminate excess water entering the bowl. Then perform the pH test on the runoff and compare it too your initial test.
    The results of the runoff test will likely be lower than your starting value of 7.0. If this is the case, a small drop of 0.5 pH to 6.5 pH (example) would be ok and your soil needs no further alterations at the moment. But that’s not to say that it won’t need any future tests at all, just not at this time.

    It may be beneficial to obtain an initial sample, as well as a ‘full flush’ sample in seperate bowls. In addition, test several plants in the garden just to verify your results]

    What if the pH is off?
    If your results prove to have dropped considerably, say to around 5.5 (which can happen in late stages of flowering), you will need to add some lime into your soil to help buffer the pH back up again.

    Remove the first inch or so of soil, taking care not to damage any roots whilst performing this task. Then sprinkle the lime into the pot, nice and evenly at a rate of 1 teaspoon (5 ml) of lime per gallon of soil. Then replace the soil you removed earlier, and saturate the soil good to wash in the lime.

    Do the same test next time your plants need watering just to check that everything is fine, if more lime needs to be added then just repeat the process again till you reach close to 6.5 – 7.0 with the runoff.

    Ensuring that your pH is correct should be done throughout the life cycle; this will help eliminate any nutrient lockout that may occur. I recommend doing this once a month just to keep the PH in check, and you should never have a problem with deficiencies caused by pH lockout.


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  3. #12

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    Thing is if there's a problem with your plant,and you dont know what it is, you ask, Who's to say that the answer is correct, you ? the guy that gave it ? well if you don know, how do you know its correct ? Deficiencies can resemble each other, Without testing the ph you wont know what the problem is, as one deficiencies can lead to another, and you may always realy on others to do the work for you.If people aren't intrested in maintaining the correct ph level that there prerogative,I got enough respect for them that i wouldn't challenge that.This subject will never die unless it caped some way on the forum,If you dont have problems, Then your lucky, But what about those that do ?? Im sure there is a lot more to it than just feeding a PH 6.5 feed all the way thro,But im intrested to find out more, Hope some can apreciate that as I can apreciate that you dont care or are not intrested,I mean no ill effect thro the words I have said to any one that disagrees with the PH subject,

    PS. This post is not in reply to you Tabba
    Last edited by GBK; 23-01-12 at 11:19 AM.

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  5. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by GREENBUDDHAKUSH View Post
    PS. This post is not in reply to you Tabba
    Why not? Am I not special enough?


    Ps.. I agree on the part about it not being as simple as water at 6.5 throughout. From what I understand so far the aim is to get the ph to rise again in the soil (buffering) so that the plant gets to eat from all stages of the ph scale within its range as the ph changes slowly.

    Of course, not armed with that little snippet, the whole ph issue is a feeling-in-the-dark scenario. It may work, but unless we know WHY it works we're screwed if we start adjusting it.

    I've shifted my position on this over the last few weeks and it does seem most useful to newbies to not be bogged down with the science until after they can complete a grow on their own. For the experienced growers it's easier to adopt these things because you know already that it has to be changed slowly and monitored.

    It does seem (or feel) like the forum is starting to acknowledge that ph is important to some and not to others. It does feel like people are STARTING to accept each others points of view on the ph issue.. and that's good.. right?


    I am the light of this forum and I am its mean twisted soul.

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  7. #14

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    ok this info is a copy and paste, i think when growing in soil its more about HARD or SOFT WATER.


    Some notes on preparing your water. A look at hard and soft water and suitable feeds for both. Also includes detail on pH adjustment of fresh and running solutions, preparing rockwool slabs for use, and water and feeds for soil.

    Water

    For most indoor growing applications whether growing in soil or with hydroponics, tap water is the best water to feed your plants with. The excess Chlorine sometimes associated with tap water can be dissipated by standing the water in a container open to the air for a few hours before use (12 to 24 hours). Sometimes excess chlorine can make the leaves twist and contort out of shape, so we would always advise allowing your water to stand before adding to your system or watering.

    Apart from the excess chlorine, tap water is excellent to use. Whether it is hard or soft water, it’s clean, bug and bacteria free and should give you no growing problems. Do not use de-ionised or distilled water and always choose tap water over rain or well water.

    Hobby pH Meter

    The pH of tap water will vary from 5.5 to 8.5. For practical purposes the lower the pH the softer the water and the higher the pH the harder the water. Added chlorine will also affect the pH, so let it dissipate before testing. Before adjusting the pH, add any necessary feed as this may also affect the pH.

    Soft Water

    Soft water generally has a low pH due to the low amounts of calcium bicarbonates and other ‘light’ atoms and ions in the water. You can use the pH of your tap water as a guide when choosing whether to use a Hard or Soft water hydroponic feed. If your pH is between 5.5 and 7.7 then your water is not hard enough to use hard water feeds and you should use only soft water or universal feeds.

    Soft Water feeds do not generally affect the pH of the nutrient solution upon make up, so some pH adjustment may be necessary to get the nutrient solution to around pH 6. Phosphoric Acid is generally used for small pH down adjustments and Potassium Hydroxide used for small pH up adjustments. A small pipette or two may be useful as only small amounts are needed.

    Universal formulation feeds like Aqua and Genesis Nutrients will work well in any water, although these and other universal feeds do affect the pH of the solution upon make up. These feeds cause the pH to drop slightly, making them difficult to use in very soft water. Aqua seems particularly susceptible to problems in very hard or very soft water and as a result we only recommend using it if you have mid-range water hardness.

    Soft water feeds – Vita Link (SW), Canna Substra (SW), Optimum (SW), GH Flora (SW), Ionic (SW), Formulex.

    Universal feeds – Europonic, Canna Aqua, Genesis Nutrients.

    Hard Water

    The more calcium bicarbonates and other ‘light’ atoms there are in your water, the ‘harder’ it is and generally the higher the pH. For Hydroponic Nutrient purposes, hard water feeds are only for people with very hard water with a cF 8 (500ppm total) or more and a pH of about 7.8 or above. If your tap water pH is below 7.8 then use soft water or universal feeds and adjust the pH of the final solution to around 6 using some pH down.

    Hard Water feeds do affect the pH of the final solution and therefore save any pH adjustment until after the feed has been added. Because hard water has a high pH, addition of a hard water feed will automatically drop the pH of the solution and reduce the amount of pH down needed.

    Hard water feeds – Canna Substra (HW), Optimum (HW), GH Flora (HW), Ionic (HW), Vita Link (HW).

    Universal feeds – Europonic, Canna Aqua, Genesis Nutrients.


    pH adjustment

    ****Do not adjust pH of water or feed solutions for soil or compost.****

    When growing in hydroponics with lots of light we must be sure that the nutrients in the solution are readily available for absorption by the roots. This means keeping the pH of the nutrient solution between a range of about 5.5 to 6.5. In re-circulating hydroponic systems, make all new solutions between this range. The pH will generally rise over the next few days but avoid adjusting the pH every day even if it goes slightly out of range. Adding too much acid (pH down) is much worse for your plant than being slightly out of the optimum pH range.

    If you are using a lot of acid to reduce your pH, but your water is not quite hard enough for hard water feeds, you may want to consider using Nitric Acid as a pH Down in vegetative growth. This affects the solution less than phosphoric acid although more is needed. Alternatively try changing feed next crop to a universal feed, which will help keep your solution pH down and buffered.

    pH in slabs

    Rockwool – For the first few days growing in rockwool cubesor slabs, the rockwool will drive the pH of the solution up until it settles down. Soaking slabs for 24 hours in a pH 5.5 solution (with appropriate strength feed added) to help stabilize the slab a bit before use.


    Water and feeds for soil/compost mixes


    De-chlorinated tap water is the best choice of water. Rain and well water can be used although we do not recommend it and de-ionised or distilled water should never be used. With the buffering capacity of soil and the larger and different pH nutrient availability range in soil environment, pH adjustment of any water or feed solutions is not necessary and only adds un-necessary elements to the water and feed.

    Consequently there are no hard water and soft water soil feeds, just universal ones which will work well in all types of water.

    Bio-Bizz nutrients – These are 100% biological, natural and a popular match with the All-Mix compost.

    Terra – This mineral based feed is a clear solution and ideal for automated irrigation systems unlike most other soil feeds which would block pumps and lines. Also gives excellent yield and quality in any soil or compost situation.

    Whatever soil feed you choose to use, with big or heavy feeding plants under high light conditions, we recommend you use some of our popular bio additives like Bio-Bizz Alg-A-Mic, TopMax Bloom Stimulator and Bio-Bizz Root Juice, or alternatively the BCuzz Range of boosters and bloom stimulators.

    easy to find!

    copy and paste

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  9. #15

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    [QUOTE=Tabba;1069009243]Why not? Am I not special enough? : I think your very special tabba,I know lots of special people, They always need help LOL


    It does feel like people are STARTING to accept each others points of view on the ph issue.. and that's good.. right?

    Your all cool man,Nice to see people can have a decent conversation without it getting to heated,Im to old for all that shat !!! and i like to treat people the way they treat me,With respect !!
    I absolutely agree that you should get a few grows under you belt, Also think that if people know how pH works, then they have the tools to fix the problems they might have, also they may never need to fix the pH problem in the 1st place if pH is correct from the start,Prevention is better than cure i was always lead to belive, Then again if its not broken,dont fix it,Getting confused now,So was it the chicken or the egg

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  11. #16

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    It's never the chicken or the egg fella.. it's always the.. erm..

    Wanna tug on this spliff?

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  13. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Up_in_smoke View Post
    My tap water comes out the tap at pH 7.6, when left overnight, this then creeps up to 8.1! [...] if my pH can change from 7.6 to 8.1 just left standing 24 hours, then in the soil its got to gradually change over the few days between waterings
    The initial change is probably due to dissolved gas being released (or absorbed) and equalising with the atmospheric concentrations (partial pressure) of those gases. Once that's done, it's done, and it shouldn't change again (barring changes in the atmosphere).

    Any later changes in the soil will be caused by other processes, such as chemical reactions with minerals in the soil and uptake of nutrients by the plants. There may be other factors too, such as oxidation of the salts, etc.

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  15. #18

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    Excellent read Alchemist Of Green,Some interesting points,Especially ****Do not adjust pH of water or feed solutions for soil or compost.****

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  17. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Up_in_smoke View Post
    Hi guys

    My mate kindly lent me his ph and ec meters this weekend to check out my values and see how far out mine are to determine if this is the cause for my yellowing issues amongst various other rust and necrotic patches.

    Well, as it turns out, I've now measured all my regular values and it draws shocking conclusions to all soil growers out there like myself that until now has never measured my ph after thinking it didn't matter. If you don't currently measure, do consider it, its probably worse than you think and if you're getting away with it without adjusting, well done, but I'm afraid this looks to be more luck that your house has a good water supply than anything you are doing.

    My tap water comes out the tap at pH 7.6, when left overnight, this then creeps up to 8.1!
    As I had assumed, when I add my nutes, as they are Hesi and pH correcting, they do level out to an ok level of 6.9. However this is still quite high.

    Even with all the controversy over pH here lately and soil, I am going along with C.W. with a pH value of 6.3 for soil. Purely because, if my pH can change from 7.6 to 8.1 just left standing 24 hours, then in the soil its got to gradually change over the few days between waterings meaning hopefully the gradual average over the 3/4 days between waterings will be around 6.5 meaning optimal nute uptake and no lockout like I've been suffering.

    As I feed my plants on a nutes, plain water repeat schedule every feed then currently I've been giving them 8.1 one day then next time 6.9 so it'll fluctuate and plain waterings will be worse for it than nute feeds, but my current average soil pH should be around 7.6 meaning its too high and that is no doubt the cause of pretty much all my issues to date.

    So the plan is, get myself a pH meter and do this properly at 6.3 all the way.
    To get my pH down to the right level of 6.3 in each solution, plain water and with feed added I had to use about 0.5ml of pH down per 5L. I found it a bit strange that I needed 0.5 to go from 8.1 to 6.3 but also 0.5 to go from 6.9 to 6.3 but I imagine thats down to the pH correcting stuff added in the Hesi nutes, my question is, is this bad to add pH down to this. Should I just feed 6.9 for the nute feed with no pH down and then use pH down to 6.3 on the plain water feed?

    Also, I was wondering, as leaving my water 24 hours only raises my pH and the EC stays the same at 0.6, is there any point? Does it really 'evaporate' off any nasties? or is it one of those old wives tales that holds no, forgive the pun, water.

    This brings me to my last questions and these are all regarding pH meters and their best practices.
    How is it best to use one? Do you turn it on before you dip it in to whats to be tested? Or turn it on when submerged? Does it matter? Once I have tested a solution, is it ok to just then shake the meter off and then dip it in another solution to be tested? Do I have to put it in plain water between or something? When I first put the meter in the solution, sometimes it would start counting down slowly and then eventually settle on a pH, is that the right level? once its settled?
    Is there any do's and don'ts with pH up and down? At the mo, if its at 8.1 I add 0.5ml of pH down (the phosphoric acid type). If I overshoot it and end up at like pH 6, is it then safe to correct it with a bit of pH up?
    How often should they be cleaned? How often should they be calibrated? Why are there different calibration fluids? Like for example, my mates meter will calibrate on buffer 4, 7 and 10. Is there any advantage to doing all three? So far I have just used the 7.
    Same questions for EC meters too, regarding the calibration of those though, which fluid should be used? I have two with two different numbers (cant remember them right now) but the ec meter just has a calibration button on the back and has no numbers with it.

    Now guys, lets keep this clean and wholy educational, C.W. For me mate, it was always just the way you came across, you can seem quite arrogant and self righteous at times, sorry I have never taken you seriously before, but you do appear to talk some sense, perhaps even know what you're talking about and I'm prepared to listen, please keep it civil people, we're all here to learn and all I wanna do is grow some awesome pot, which so far in 2 years I've struggled to do.

    Peace, love, and good Ganja

    Up_in_smoke

    P.S. Sorry that was such a long post guys, I know China wants its wall back but I've got so many questions on this subject.

    ph everything..water and foods. always to same ph..6.3 or 6.5..whatever you want in the good soil range but stick to 1 number. the ph range isnt meant to be swung from one end to other/. missinformation..

    the ph rose due to the gases leaving but not food so ec didnt move. most of the ec in your water is calcium. it isnt going anywhere and does block good source cal from getting to the roots. its not passed through the roots skin as easily as our calcium is....thats what hard water usualy is from...hi cal.

    as for the ph penbs. rinse in cklean water when you go from one solution to other. if its from water to food or back then obvious dont matter.,.keep cap on. they say to store tip in ph 4 but i dont and have found it fuks my true readings. i dont store it in anything and they last years still...if capped at least. clean probe every so often with a soft bristled brush and water. not hot..warm.
    dosent matter to turn on in liquid ir just as your going into liquids...do not put tips under hot water to clean them. youll be buying a new one real soon if not right away..been there...lol

    yes the ph takes a bit to settle and show a steady reading. some are faster than others. my blue labs gaurdian takes forever and others are right away.

    never add up and down in same rez. it binds and the 2 molecules form a compound and can cause nute elements to drop out. mix ph up or down in a small bit of clean water beofre dumping in a rez of food./ dont want to see the blue cliyd when adding it or can also be foods binding. mix each food well before adding next. always add salts first then others, once all is in rez. and ph added bubble it is best or let sit for 45 min or so to adjust and recheck and adjust if needed. some will hold and some wont depending on what is in our waters. so each will be different.

    yes if you go to far up you can use phos to drop it..your bloom bottle. never use baking soda if your organic or use fungi and microbials. leaving water sit out just allows to get to temp and releases chlorine. if you dont run true3 organics its not doing anything as chlorine is actualy a food for the plant

    cal with at least 7. 4 is the next choice for fussier control. 10 isnt for us. if your plant likjes low ph you use 4...if its a hi ph plant above 7 then you use ph10 with the 7. 4 isnt even needed, did for years without. using 4 will adjust the second decimal better for the most part and realy isnt needed.

    your ec meter has 2 forms or chemicals they use to cal them..one will be the conversion of ec x .5 and other will set pens to ec x .7
    important to know what your pen reads in as it can be about 500 ppm different....most are .5 scales
    id need the model to look see hat yours is and how to set. each is diff

    i know i came across rude...is how i felt of some as well but being new nobody cares or bothered to look at the other side. its fine if we can move on. and i dont expect everyone to get this on day 1...or 5 years from now. you dont need to know everything about ph to use it and improve things. just as we dont in our soils. i could go on and on about how soils work and whats in them to or nutes. you dont need to know it all. some just helps understand other things about it or how it works..some can be just for knowledge and never use it ever. alot will happen on its own to so this isnt like its some huge episode just to set ph and feed a plant. 5 min out of my life eachg feed to rearasure me i did what i could to get the best isnt alot of extra work.

    i totaly get it for those that dont care and are fine with what they have. they should also be fine with others wanting to know more about or awesome plant.

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  19. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by GREENBUDDHAKUSH View Post
    This is how I deal with PH

    Why do you want to know your runoff pH? Simple- it's an indication of how your water, fertilizer, and grow medium are interacting chemically.

    There are 3 measurements that are important to know when you are caring for plants growing in a soil or soilless medium.
    The first is the pH of your source water.
    Next is the pH of your nutrient solution after the fertilizers and supplements are added.
    Last is the pH of your soil. But that's the hard one! You can't just stick a pH meter in the dirt and get an accurate reading, and the cheap metal-probed meters that show this are usually not all that precise.

    So how does one determine soil pH accurately? With a runoff test! First, measure the pH of your tap water and record it. As an example, let's say that it is 7.0, exactly neutral.

    Now place the pot over a clean rinsed container and pour enough water through the soil to start dripping out the bottom. Collect about 4 ounces of runoff water. Check to see if it is discolored as well.

    Now, if you only have liquid indicator, which is just fine, pour this water into a clean small tube or the test vial that came with your pH testing kit.Add a few drops of indicator solution, shake, and read the color change.
    If you have a meter, simply stick the electrode in the water and read.

    Let's say that your runoff comes out at 6.5. How did that happen? The water passed through a more acidic matrix and dropped its pH. You can assume that your true soil pH is a couple tenths of a pH point lower than the runoff in this case- I'd assume about a 6.2. If it comes out HIGHER, just go in the opposite direction. If it came out 7.5, you can assume that you need to drop down from about 7.8.

    You want around 6.0-6.5 for a soilless mix, or 6.3-6.8 for soil.

    Pics:
    1- Propping up the plant over a container to catch runoff
    2- POuring clean water through the soil
    3- For liquid indicator, pour into clean vials
    4- Check the pH against the color chart
    5- Adjust the flush water if necessary

    How to test the pH of your soil mix

    Measuring the pH of soil is just as important as with hydro applications, but few people know how to test soil pH to see if it is within the optimum range for growing robust healthy plants. Here I will try to explain my method of testing any soil / soilless mix, enabling me to spot any problems and correct them if necessary.

    Firstly, wait till your soil has dried out and is due for its next watering schedule. Then take some plain water that you usually water your garden with, and adjust the pH to 7.0. You must make sure that you know the exact pH of the water going into your soil, and the neutral 7.0 is best, but anywhere from 6.5 – 7.0 will suffice.

    Then place your pot into a bowl of some sort to catch the runoff water, and then start to water your soil slowly (with your pH- corrected plain water) till the water starts to drip from the bottom.
    It’s the first drops of water that will give you the best reading of your soil, so make sure to water slowly till you see the first droplets. Then remove the pot from the bowl to eliminate excess water entering the bowl. Then perform the pH test on the runoff and compare it too your initial test.
    The results of the runoff test will likely be lower than your starting value of 7.0. If this is the case, a small drop of 0.5 pH to 6.5 pH (example) would be ok and your soil needs no further alterations at the moment. But that’s not to say that it won’t need any future tests at all, just not at this time.

    It may be beneficial to obtain an initial sample, as well as a ‘full flush’ sample in seperate bowls. In addition, test several plants in the garden just to verify your results]

    What if the pH is off?
    If your results prove to have dropped considerably, say to around 5.5 (which can happen in late stages of flowering), you will need to add some lime into your soil to help buffer the pH back up again.

    Remove the first inch or so of soil, taking care not to damage any roots whilst performing this task. Then sprinkle the lime into the pot, nice and evenly at a rate of 1 teaspoon (5 ml) of lime per gallon of soil. Then replace the soil you removed earlier, and saturate the soil good to wash in the lime.

    Do the same test next time your plants need watering just to check that everything is fine, if more lime needs to be added then just repeat the process again till you reach close to 6.5 – 7.0 with the runoff.

    Ensuring that your pH is correct should be done throughout the life cycle; this will help eliminate any nutrient lockout that may occur. I recommend doing this once a month just to keep the PH in check, and you should never have a problem with deficiencies caused by pH lockout.

    good info. kinda on fence about using the liquid and this saying they are fine. they are in a totaly clear solution. not with run off that is usualy piss colour or brown from dirt. changes the outcome. or with nutes. they are made to test pools and hot tubs with clear water. and we all have a diff perception of colours and males are way more colour blind than females...learnt that in autopaint aprentiship

    and i didnt get what he meant about testing the soil and if out add drops of ph??..to the soil?>//not how its done and then i see him or she...say about ph in mid flower and if was down at near 5.5...yes true to low but dont add anything. messing up C.E.C, how the food is able to pass from soil to roots, its measured accurate not just dumped in. lime should lasst our whole grow indoor..for most at about 3 to 4 months.

  20. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to C.W. For This Useful Post:

    Bowserboy (21-01-21), GBK (23-01-12), GEORGE (17-03-19), JAMEAT (23-06-20)

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