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Thread: PH info and problem solving.

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by C.W. View Post
    most cases when you see a burn. a deff....and check run off you will find a low ph and hi ec..lots of food but canbt eat it with low ph and salt build up to close the plant down. needs water and watch run off for numbers in ec to drop and ph will rise...on its own with just ph water. ph it to same as always use with feeds.
    if ph is hi then usualy see a low ec..needs food and it is defficient in the true meaning....or what most call deff.
    a plant will always show the same for to much food or not enough. just slight variation to how it shows...the rate of it.
    if we see a green leaf but a more quick burn on edges its more likley a ph issue. may show light tops and thin tops and twisted leaves from this.

    the firdst thing i watch for to keep ahead of it is the tops. that will tell current emmediate health in soil. older leaves that go are usualy from the plant taking the food to the tops so over a day or so them lighter tops will become green again...food isnt right if thats the case...ph isnt right...effecting the fod..or it dosent have enough food in medium.

    so if leaves fade green gradual then show burns its usualy the lack of food as its a slower loss.
    Another lot of sense made.
    I have seen light tops, thin tops and twisted leaves in the past, ph issues blatently. And as you say, always the tops that look funny first. I seriously can not believe I overlooked this for so long.

    I watered my first ph'd water last night, it was a plain feed, no nutes so I ph'd to 6.3, EC of the plain water was 0.6.
    Checked my runoff, pH was 6.3 EC was 1.6 which with what little I know about EC is quite high? Which would explain why I've got a little bit of tip burn at the mo. Sticking to my usual schedule I would have fed nutes next feed but now that I've been able to check EC, I can clearly see, my plants won't need nutes next go.

    So whilst I'm only trying to keep an eye on my pH, it has enabled me straight away to gain a better understanding of how my medium is at any one time, before I used to base it on, alternate water and nutes and watch out for tip burn, if I got burn, slow it down, lol. This way is much more precise, and should allow me to see when the plant is uptaking max amounts of nutes. I like it
    Last edited by Up_in_smoke; 24-01-12 at 10:19 AM.

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  3. #42

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    Its crazy when the lights go on and it all make sense,Sounds like you getting to grips with it so fast up-to I can here your excitement,Good for you man


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  5. #43

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    Well, I think this is the first thread where there hasn't been some sort of bickering.... and probably the most informative.. Maybe there is a connection!

    Thanks to EVERYONE who has posted in here.... I'm slowly getting my head round the bigger picture! and also know that I'll be doing things a little different on my next grow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobby2812 View Post
    By about the 3rd or 4th week flower (5 to 6 weeks 12/12) my plants start to go yellow on the tips and down the edges of the leaves. Next thing I see is the leaves go crispy brown almost over night. It usually looks as if I am getting light bleaching the way they go yellow.
    I've probably asked you this before, but what lamps are you using? Could it be the blue light thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by _Whisperer View Post
    Well, I think this is the first thread where there hasn't been some sort of bickering.... and probably the most informative.. Maybe there is a connection!

    Thanks to EVERYONE who has posted in here.... I'm slowly getting my head round the bigger picture! and also know that I'll be doing things a little different on my next grow.
    Its mainly becouse the people in the thread agree that ph is need,Along come those that dont,and off we go again,and the thread was set up for the purpose of ph,Not just someones thread that the ph discussion got going and went wrong.Im finding this thread very educational,With great information that make sense,on a level i can understand.

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  11. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymiss View Post
    I've probably asked you this before, but what lamps are you using? Could it be the blue light thing?


    For veg I've been using a 125w Envirolite 6400K. Then after 2 1/2 to 3 weeks veg I pot up and the plants used to go under a 250w hps. Now they go under a 250w dual spectrum hps which I have been using for the last year. Got a new bulb to go in after my current grow has finished and that will be a 250w dual spectrum hps.

    The yellowing doesn't seem like a lack of nitrogen kind of yellowing. Looks more like light bleaching then all of a sudden they go crispy brown if I don't keep on top of the pH. Below are 2 pics of my last grow of California Indica. You can see the yellowing I am getting in the first pic. Defo not lack of nitrogen, more like too much judging by the colour of some of the side branches. Once they have been that yellow colour for a few weeks then they burn up and go crispy brown like the second pic. These Cali's weren't fed as they seemed to get all what they needed from the soil. I just didn't keep on top of the pH when watering for 1 or 2 waterings.




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  13. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobby2812 View Post
    For veg I've been using a 125w Envirolite 6400K. Then after 2 1/2 to 3 weeks veg I pot up and the plants used to go under a 250w hps. Now they go under a 250w dual spectrum hps which I have been using for the last year. Got a new bulb to go in after my current grow has finished and that will be a 250w dual spectrum hps.
    I would have thought that dual spectrum might produce enough blue, but I really don't know how good or 'dual' they actually are.

    The yellowing doesn't seem like a lack of nitrogen kind of yellowing. Looks more like light bleaching
    I was thinking more along the lines of there not being enough blue light for the plant to be able to synthesise chlorophyll, rather than lack of nitrogen (although the symptoms may, of course be, very similar).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmmbud View Post
    Hi joey,my ph is 5.7 i dont check the run off,but i was told as long as its between 5.5 an 6.2 it should be ok.My ec is at 1.3 but i am only a few weeks off harvest,but you say you keep feeding it 6 to 7 litres of water,how big is the plant mate? over feeding isnt good mate i am giving my plants just over a litre of water every 2 days,i have 7 plants and mix 10 litres of water to share among them. hope this helps.
    It sounds like you're underfeeding a bit buddy.
    They should take 3-4 days between waters and if thats final pot size we're talking, 1 litre of water wouldn't be enough and this will be why they're thirsty after 2 days.
    For a final pot (15-20L) in soil under a 600 I feed 5L per plant per feed from about week 2 flowering. In mid-late veg they get a minimum of 2L-3L.
    You need to be watering slowly until you get runoff out the bottom.

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    This is turning out to be a cracking thread, information overload, lovein it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymiss View Post
    I would have thought that dual spectrum might produce enough blue, but I really don't know how good or 'dual' they actually are.

    Pass but I never noticed any difference between the hps I was using and the hps dual spectrum I brought last year. It's a Sunmaster 250W Dual Spectrum Grow Lamp - 33000 Lumens that I used last year and have brought again for this year. Plants seem to love it for the first few weeks then things seem to go tits up.

    I'm at the start of my 5th week flowering on my current grow so nearer 7 weeks of 12/12 and so far everything seems to be ticking along nicely. Yeah I messed the pH at the start of the grow but by the time they actually started to flower they had bounced back from it. I've also changed my soil from the Levingtons Multi Purpose compost I was using to B&Q Multi Purpose compost for this current grow to see if that helps.

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    I have no idea of the importance of EC,So when I came across this it started to explain some of the question I might later ask,Maybe as CW says,This info maybe out dated and so would not state what is written as fact,More of a guide, Hope it helps some that are now questioning whet ec has to do with all this.

    The why and how to testing the Electrical Conductivity of Soils.

    Electrical Conductivity is a very quick, simple and inexpensive method that home gardeners can use to check the health of their soils. Whereas pH is a good indicator of the balance of available nutrients in your soil, Electrical Conductivity can almost be viewed as the quantity of available nutrients in your soil. (NOTE: Only nutrients that are dissolved in the soil water is “Available” for crops to take in).

    What is Electrical Conductivity?

    In the soil, the Electrical Conductivity (EC) reading shows the level of ability the soil water has to carry an electrical current. The EC levels of the soil water is a good indication of the amount of nutrients available for your crops to absorb.

    Think of it like this, all the major and minor nutrients important for plant growth take the form of either Cations (positively charged ions) or Anions (negatively charged ions). These ions that are dissolved in the soil water carry electrical charge and thus determine the EC level of your soil and how many nutrients are available for your crops to take in. Knowing your soils EC can allow you to make more educated farming decisions.

    To support these claims, Researchers at Clemson University documented the correlations between EC and different crop inputs, documenting these at multiple sites over multiple years. They found unmistakable evidence showing that yield data have consistently supported the EC correlations with water, fertilizer, and pesticide use.

    Using EC data to develop zones, in six on-farm tests, they overlaid yield maps developed after the crops had been harvested over EC maps developed before the crops were planted and found that the two maps match perfectly.

    They also found that where EC levels were high (More available nutrients) less fertilizer is needed but more weed control in places where they had a morning glory problem. For example on sandier soils with low EC ratings, it took only a quarter-pound of active ingredient in the herbicide to get 80 percent control morning glory. On heavier soils with higher EC ratings, it took up to five times that amount to achieve the same level of control.

    Other factors also contribute to soil EC variability include the connectivity of the soil water through soil density, soil structure, water potential, precipitation, timing of measurement, soil aggregation, electrolytes in soil water (e.g. salinity, exchangeable ions, soil water content, soil temperature). Also the conductivity of the mineral phase affects the EC reading for example the types and quantity of minerals, degree of isomorphic substitution, and exchangeable ions. Regardless of what these multiple causes of EC variability are, what still remains is that EC measurements are consistently correlated to soil properties that affect crop productivity, including soil texture, Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC), drainage conditions, organic matter level and salinity, so knowing your soils EC level is a great predictor of your plants health.

    For example if the soil EC is too high, it can be indicative of excess nitrogen based fertilizer or a high level of exchangeable sodium. Soils with an accumulation of exchangeable sodium are often characterized by poor tilth and low permeability making them unfavorable for plant growth. Soil EC is also related to specific soil properties that affect crop yield, such as topsoil depth, pH, salt concentrations and water-holding capacity. Thus EC is a great tool for explaining what your yields could be and taking action to get better yields.

    Testing the EC of your soils
    The way that Electrical conductivity can be measured is using an EC meter. The probe or sensor consists of two metal electrodes and a constant voltage is applied across the electrodes resulting in an electrical current flowing through the sample. Since the current flowing through the water is proportional to the concentration of dissolved ions in the water, the electrical conductivity can be measured. The higher the dissolved salt/ion concentration, the more conductive the sample and hence the higher the conductivity reading.

    The unit of measurement for Electrical Conductivity is microSiemens per centimeter (µS/cm). Up until about the late 1970's the units of EC were micromhos per centimeter (µmhos/cm) after which they were changed to microSiemens/cm (1µS/cm = 1 µmho/cm). Also a 1000 microsiemans is equal to 1 millisieman (1MS/cm)

    Interestingly, the unit "mhos" derives from the standard name for electrical resistance reflecting the inverse relationship between resistance and conductivity - the higher the resistance of the water, the lower its conductivity. This also follows from Ohm’s Law, V = I x R where R is the resistance of the centimeter of water. Since the electrical current flow (I) increases with increasing temperature, the EC values are automatically corrected to a standard value of 25°C and the values are then technically referred to as specific electrical conductivity. A good EC meter will have ATC (automatic temperature compensation) so you can get accurate results regardless of sample temperature.

    To get a soil extract we recommend a similar method as we do for testing pH so that both EC and pH measurements can be taken at the same time.

    •Gather a fresh soil sample in a plastic zip-loc bag. Try to get a profile from the top 6” of soil that the plants will grow in and take care not to contaminate the sample by touching with anything.
    •Open the bag and let it air-dry for a few hours until it is mostly dried.
    •Mix the soil in the bag to ensure a homogenous sample and then use a sieve with approximate 2mm spacing to remove any large soil clumps.
    •Measure out ½ of a cup of the dried soil and put into a glass beaker.
    •Measure out ½ of a cup of distilled water and put this into the glass beaker with the soil.
    •Stir the mixture gently for 30 seconds. Do not mix to harshly as you may destroy the humus structure and the soil may give up elements that it otherwise would not do in nature.
    •Let the soil-water suspension stand for 30 minutes.
    •Stir water gently again before taking the EC measurement.
    •Insert the EC meter into the beaker and swirl it gently around in the soil-water extract.
    •After approximately 30-60 seconds or after the EC reading has stabilized, read the digital display on your meter.

    Ideal EC Levels.

    It is difficult to say what your ideal EC levels will be because there are so many variables affecting the EC level that it almost depends on your individual conditions which if you analyze over time, will give you a meaningful set of data based on the performance of your crops and the changes you have made to your fertility program.

    As a general guideline however, a good soil EC level will be somewhere above 200 µS/cm and 1200 µS/cm (1.2 MS/cm). Any soils below 200 means there is not enough nutrients available to the plant and could perhaps show a sterile soil with little microbial activity. An EC above 1200 µS/cm may indicate too much high salt fertilizer or perhaps a salinity problem from lack of drainage so keeping your EC within this range. Also watch to see how EC changes over the growing season, you may see it increase as microbes are releasing more nutrients from the soil or you may see a decrease as your crops use up all the available nutrients. Either way you can fertilize accordingly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jobby2812 View Post
    Pass but I never noticed any difference between the hps I was using and the hps dual spectrum I brought last year. It's a Sunmaster 250W Dual Spectrum Grow Lamp - 33000 Lumens that I used last year and have brought again for this year. Plants seem to love it for the first few weeks then things seem to go tits up.
    If the blue light thing is involved then that's probably what I'd expect when switching to HPS.

    Can you add some blue light somehow? Maybe just a cool-white/daylight fluorescent would suffice?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GREENBUDDHAKUSH View Post
    Its mainly becouse the people in the thread agree that ph is need,Along come those that dont,and off we go again,and the thread was set up for the purpose of ph,Not just someones thread that the ph discussion got going and went wrong.Im finding this thread very educational,With great information that make sense,on a level i can understand.
    Sorry I disagree m8, I think the non ph growers just keep out the way now or they face a lecture I do agree there's some very good info in here tho'

    C.W. has stated in this thread, post #24

    "i also rarely need to check it or do run off tests anymore. ive got to know my water and food and what dose takes me to roughly what ph...at times is how i decide what dose to feed so no ph needed."
    What I have stated about not phing is exactly the same! I've been working with the same soil medium and nutes for two years and have learned how to use them properly instead of running to the hydro shop everytime I see a bit of yellow. My current girls are in their seventh week of flower and they're all "green as a bullfrog, sticky as glue"

    @C.W. I'm not having a pop at you m8, your writings are very interesting and I have learned things from it. Successful growing imo is more about experimenting with what you've got rather than try and work out what others have got/done and trying to apply it to your own grow! I read your diary and your plants are lovely specimens but I reckon your ph/ec meter would would cost more than my whole set up

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  27. #54

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    I love a good lecture,What better way to learn,As an adult i think i can take a good shooting down without crying about it, and take it on the chin,Im looking forward to the day when I have the experince and confidence not to use PH and EC equipment,But i still need to learn how and why and when and where ................................

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    that blue light info is interesting. i dont think thats his issue or how accurate it is in the actual grow world vs a book. ive used straight up hps all red from the 70`s to 80`s and never had the bulbs cause the lightening or the issues described here. it could still do some. how much.,..who knows. blue and reds do effect alot of things like hormones and so on inside them so the colours do make an effect but to what extent who knows. if more had same issue with same or similar type bulb id tent to lean to the bulb but i dont see that. and to be honest i dont know of to many bulbs anymore than are just red for hps/...yes some but its faded out of the industry quite a bit...except for reg old security lighting bulbs

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  31. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Up_in_smoke View Post
    It sounds like you're underfeeding a bit buddy.
    They should take 3-4 days between waters and if thats final pot size we're talking, 1 litre of water wouldn't be enough and this will be why they're thirsty after 2 days.
    For a final pot (15-20L) in soil under a 600 I feed 5L per plant per feed from about week 2 flowering. In mid-late veg they get a minimum of 2L-3L.
    You need to be watering slowly until you get runoff out the bottom.

    sound advice on water amounts. we need to slowly use more and more till our root masses have filled our medium. then we can about dump any amounts in there and they wont droop. when younger and not full of roots it would drown them and slow them..and doing that can and does mess up pH..being to wet to long

    for me im in 2 gal pots, under 2x600 and i get 1 day to 2 days max of no work on them as far as feed or water....but thats me. we all do diff amounts. i feel 3 to 4 days is to long to be wet unless in something like a 10 gal pot and thats way to big for any grows in here. unless they veg for like 6 or more months

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    actualy tic tok the pen i use now cost me 50 bucks. i gave ,my 600 dollar ,meter away to a needing friend. to be honest i trust the cheeper one alot better....blue labs sucks in my opinion. cost deffinatly dosent mean quality. ive used a 20 dollar pen for years and been fine to.
    wasnt taking it as a poke dood. some of us like to know and some are ok with close and guessing. dosent make either wrong. and how i see is if they dont even bothger to try then they will never know if it helps or makes more better buds for them.

    and fo rme reason i dont need to check is i know my water is perfect each day. you guys dont for the most part, mine gets filtered so outcome numbers are exact each time. water source plays huge role on pH and can be different daily

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    i dont know anyone good enough to never have a use for ph pens. they may think its ok but nobody can grow perfect. most issue we will never see above the soil but they happen

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    if theres any info or stuff i post and some dont get certain info or the whole thing, just say so and i dont mind trying to explain it different ways.

    i see alot looking in the medium for ph effects....some should look above as there is alot above that will also effect ph....stomata.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C.W. View Post
    that blue light info is interesting. i dont think thats his issue or how accurate it is in the actual grow world vs a book. ive used straight up hps all red from the 70`s to 80`s and never had the bulbs cause the lightening or the issues described here. it could still do some. how much.,..who knows. blue and reds do effect alot of things like hormones and so on inside them so the colours do make an effect but to what extent who knows. if more had same issue with same or similar type bulb id tent to lean to the bulb but i dont see that. and to be honest i dont know of to many bulbs anymore than are just red for hps/...yes some but its faded out of the industry quite a bit...except for reg old security lighting bulbs
    HPS, as a generic source, is very short on blue wavelengths. They do emit some though, so with sufficient intensity the plants may receive enough blue. This may be why it doesn't affect plants grown under high illuminance levels, and could be why it hasn't happened to you.

    "Dual-spec" lamps try to address the issue somewhat but whether it's sufficient or not, who knows?

    The red/blue thing is, as you say, important and affects the photomorphogenic responses. The normal 'an excess of blue reduces stem elongation', and 'red promotes flower growth', and all the rest. One of those things is that without enough blue light the plant won't be able to make chlorophyll.

    I strongly suspect that for HPS growers (and especially those using less-than-optimal illuminance) who have plants exhibiting yellowing leaves, the lack of blue is a contributory factor. As far as I can tell, it certainly seems like it happens in those situations more than any other.

    And, mostly, the topics and posts and recieved wisdom is that either "the plant is eating itself/using up stored food" (which doesn't really happen in real life, outdoor plants of most descriptions), or that there's a deficiency or pH issue. The thing is, I rarely, if ever, see it solved. After mucking about altering this, testing that, and changing the other it's usually down to the fallback, "they always do that near the end". Now that may be true, but is that actually "normal" behaviour, or is it caused by a lack of blue light? And if it is normal, why don't all plants do it, rather than just some?

    It's definitely an an interesting question, but the more I see and the more I read, the more I'm swayed towards the idea. It's simple, elegant, is supported by observational and biological/chemical evidence, and it's a relatively easy thing to fix or test.

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