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Thread: Advice for anyone considering LED

  1. #1

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    Default Advice for anyone considering LED

    As an LED grower I get asked a lot of questions about panels, and what's right for different setups. Sadly the usual scenario with LED threads is that they quickly turn into a debate about the which is better - traditional HID lighting or LED.

    What I'm posting below has been cobbled together from a few posts I've made over the weeks about LED lighting generally and what you need to understand if you are seriously thinking about investing in LED lighting for horticultural purposes - ie, to grow your stash!

    I'm not going to get into a debate about which is better - for me that argument is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is that we are able to choose our lighting setup to suit our own individual needs and requirements - much like we choose whether we grow in soil, coco, pebbles or water; if we grow in soil do we grow organically or chemically, if we grow in coco what system do we use? There are sacrifices and trade-offs with whatever system and set up we eventually go for. The intelligent grower will choose their lighting set up, growing medium, nutrient system, etc, etc, to suit their own requirements. The intelligent grower will then seek to maximise on the setup they've chosen, whether that's growing the biggest plant, the smallest plant, having the highest yield, the most seeds, the most variety, the lowest carbon footprint, the smallest energy bill, the lowest water consumption, whatever those factors or combination of factors are.

    Solid state/LED lighting is currently still in its relative infancy. This is a semiconductor business, after all, and as such it is lalloping along in leaps and bounds. We have seen improvements in the diodes, the implementation of lenses and combinations of different types of lenses, improvements in the heatsinks, the circuitry and the spectral ranges available. Like any semiconductor subfield, advances appear rapidly to start and then plateau with time - and like any other semiconductor business, they follow various laws and predictable trends, both in development, cost and use. There have, however, been some major advances in the last two years and it is simply unrealistic to compare panels from even two years ago with what is currently available.*Each decade LED prices have fallen by a factor of 10, while performance has grown by a factor of 20. This phenomenon is known as Haitz' Law*(Steigerwald et al., 2002). The*implementation and mass production of LED lighting arrays for other purposes and industries will also significantly reduce the cost of solid state lighting.*

    The lighting industry is changing, whether we like it or not. A Wired report from the 2011 Lightfair states: 'if all goes according to plan, the provisions of 2007′s Energy Independence and Security Act will effectively ban 100-watt incandescents starting in 2012. Seventy-five-watt bulbs will depart in 2013, followed by 60- and 40-watt lamps a year later. So the race to find a suitable replacement technology is coming down to the wire. The industry is banking on LED lighting as the way forward, and it’s virtually the only bulb technology on display: There is barely a single incandescent or sickly compact fluorescent to be seen. Just 200,000 square feet of companies racing to fill their share of the world’s billions of standard sockets—and betting on LEDs as the way to do it.'*

    And from what I understand further developments will either ban traditional high pressure sodium vapour lamps in around two years time (April 2015) or demand that existing technology becomes more efficient.*
    *
    Because LED lighting for horticultural purposes is still in its relative infancy, it is an emerging market and as such it is suffering at the hands of*entrepreneurial*but aggressive marketeers who have seen opportunities within our arena, and understand how little bargaining power we have for various legal reasons. In addition, we are suffering because the plant we grow has particular spectral requirements, and advances in our understanding of what these particular requirements are have been slow because obviously what we're growing is illegal. It has only been within the last 12-18 months that panels have started to become available that utilise a sufficient spectral range necessary for growing the plant through its complete life cycle.
    **
    There is a lot of well meaning but slightly misguided (and often downright misleading) information on LED. If you want to grow with LED it is important to understand how the panels and diodes work and will work in your particular space. It is not simply about overall power output of the panel - all that does is give the grower an indication of the physical growing area that panel will cover. It is not about the power of the individual diodes within the panel - that just gives the grower an indication of the depth penetration of the panel, the necessary height that panel needs to be above the canopy, and whether you need to consider a SCroG or can leave your plants untrained. It is a combined and considered understanding of the overall power output of the panel, the power of the individual diodes comprising that panel, the lenses and combination of lenses used to focus the diodes within that panel, and the colour spectrums and spectral ratios used within the panel.

    Plant lighting applications require a large number of individual diodes, not single high output diodes! For various physical reasons - mainly the droop effect, t
    he 1w diode*(which draws 0.85w)*will always be the most efficient diode there is for our purposes - for reasons of pure physics. The 3w diode gives a nice tradeoff between depth penetration and efficiency (and draws an average of 2w - 1.8-2.2w, depending on colour spectrum). I haven't seen any grows utilising 5w diodes but aside from their inefficiency, - they draw just over 3w. I can't see how they will be that useful for the average grower as the power of those diodes means that they have to positioned at a substantial height from the canopy to avoid bleaching - 3w diodes already need to be placed a good 15-18 inches above the canopy.*

    Let me repeat the above statement; there is an exponential drop in diode efficiency as the potential output of the diode increases from 1-3-5w.*

    The other aspect to consider is that in a 100w panel, consisting of 1w diodes, you will get 100 1w diodes. In a 100w panel consisting of 3w diodes, you will get around 30 3w diodes, and in a 5w panel, I guess around 20 diodes. This means that as far as horizontal coverage goes, the 1w diodes outshine (if you'll pardon the pun) the others - again, simple physics.*

    For most growers all they will need is a panel comprised of 3w diodes but using a combination of 30, 60 and 90 degree lenses, which give a nice balance between horizontal coverage and vertical depth penetration. They then need to ensure that they have a sufficient combination of colour spectrums covering blue, red, far red, orange, UV, white and green. The final consideration (ie, do I need a 200w panel, a 300w panel or two, 200w panels) is determined by their physical growing space.

    If you are seriously considering LED then I urge to spend some time digesting the information on the following website:

    www.ledgrowlightsreview.org

    This is an independent site, set up by a guy who*as far as I can tell has no agenda or affiliation and he's not actively pushing LED or selling anything (which goes down well with me). He's just laying the cards on the table.*

    It combines basic information, technology, news, reviews and interviews. The reviews and the reviews combined with the interviews make for interesting reading and they do help you get a feel for what's right for you or what might suit your situation.*

    b, THERE IS SOME REALLY USEFUL INFORMATION THERE - a lot of very useful information, clearly explained. It's worth reading as much of it as you can - especially the tech. And then when you've read it all and think you understand it, go back and reread it, and then smoke a blunt and read it some more until you understand what's what.*

    I will say it doesn't look as though it's been updated in a while so if you're looking for a review of the latest panel you may not find it, but the tech stuff is bang on.

    Growing with LED is not the same as growing with HPS. With HPS you can buy a bulb, buy a ballast, buy a shade, plug them all in and you're off - essentially (i realise there are considerations within that). You do have to think a bit harder with LED; you have to work out the right combination of output (for coverage), diode strength and focusing lenes (for penetration) and then you consider your wavelengths. Cannabis is quite demanding light wise. It's not a simple plant in that respect and unless you have the correct spectral field in your panel, it doesn't matter how powerful it is, it ain't gonna cut the mustard. And it has only been within the last 12 months or so that the correct spectral requirements have been incorporated into these panels.*

    As a scientist, when I set up an experiment, I research, read, plan and prepare before finally executing. Please take the time to do the same with LED. I can't state this clearly, plainly and frequently enough; if you want to grow with LED, take some time to understand what you are getting into and how the different factors interplay and relate to each other - in other words, LEARN THE TECH! LED panels - even those from China - are relatively expensive, and may well be the most expensive item in your setup. Combine this with the unscrupulous nature of the current LED market, and it is the fool who enters the arena unprepared!!

    So here it is again, for anyone interested in LED lighting for horticultural purposes:

    www.ledgrowlightsreview.org

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  3. #2

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    I would like to thank Phineasfreek you on an informative post.Especially as he is another casual grower.

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  5. #3
    stephen07 Guest

    Default Advice for anyone considering LED

    I best stock up on bulbs after 2015 , great read when your baked

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    Great info

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    LED lights that do work!

    We have had these in for two months now, we have done tests with sodium and LEDs. One person got 5% less on the LED and the other two got the same as using LED bulb unit.

    At the moment, you need six LED lamps to make a 600 sodium. In a few weeks they are bringing a new one piece light out which will be the same as a 600 sodium light.

    6 months ago i would of said they are crap and don't waste your money. After seeing them, i would get them. Only bad news is the price.

    They are called CROP LAMP, worth having a look at if your moving over to LEDS.

    Had many in the past and they never seemed to work.

    Be careful when looking for LED's, there are a lot of people saying a lot of things, a lot is BS.

    We have a lot of people trying to sell us cheap LEDs from China, we have tested and the don't work as well as a 600 sodium

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  10. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by coalmonkey View Post
    LED lights that do work!

    We have had these in for two months now, we have done tests with sodium and LEDs. One person got 5% less on the LED and the other two got the same as using LED bulb unit.

    At the moment, you need six LED lamps to make a 600 sodium. In a few weeks they are bringing a new one piece light out which will be the same as a 600 sodium light.

    6 months ago i would of said they are crap and don't waste your money. After seeing them, i would get them. Only bad news is the price.

    They are called CROP LAMP, worth having a look at if your moving over to LEDS.

    Had many in the past and they never seemed to work.

    Be careful when looking for LED's, there are a lot of people saying a lot of things, a lot is BS.

    We have a lot of people trying to sell us cheap LEDs from China, we have tested and the don't work as well as a 600 sodium
    Why is it that companies are always slating leds from China? The fact is many of us are using them and they clearly do work. China just has the facilities and manufacturing expertise that many western countries don't have.

    I've had a look at the crop lamps but I would want to see full specs (and a few grows) before believing your claims. 150 degree beam angle with 2w diodes, for instance...? Many of us are using 3w, 5w and now multi arrays, with either 60 degree or surface lenses. How will a 150 degree lens provide the penetrative power necessary for growing a plant that can easily reach 5 or 6 feet in height? What about spectrums? We need broad spectrums not just for flowering but for trichome/resin production; red and blue spectrums aren't enough for this. Are you offering any of your panels for testing?

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  12. #7
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    Nice Post My good Friend.
    Should be invaluable to the Noob considering things.

    ATB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icon View Post
    Nice Post My good Friend.
    Should be invaluable to the Noob considering things.

    ATB
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    Kinda reads a little dated now... The basic info is still sound but the tech has advanced even from when I wrote that piece. Some of the new mixed array panels with surface blending lenses are looking awesome. More and more converts to the pink twinkles every day. I'll convert you yet, my friend .

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  16. #9
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    Like I always said when the time is right I will.
    Been looking at them since 2002 and always said that I will but not until I am happy.
    Pfft TBH ATM Id grow with an LED torch given half the chance just cannot find the time

    ATB
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    Very informative thabks phinaesfreek :thumbup:
    I have 2 led lights that someone gave me, I have never grown anything using just them,but I have them as a bit of extra side lighting to my plants, cant do any harm and cheap on the lecky I may get round to try growing something with just them and see how they go. I think the fact I have always grown with hps bulbs, I am a bit reluctant to try something new, if it aint broke dont fix it, as they say. I will check out some led grows after reading this tho for sure.

    sent from somewhere I cant remember

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